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  1. #171
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I was right there until the Nazi thing.

    But regarding educational standards, most states actually ARE moving towards a set of shared standards- voluntarily. (Well, sort of. There's some federal money incentive involved in the form of Race to the Top funds.) And they are very good standards. I work with them every day (I write and edit textbooks). Some of the states' standards are just ponderous, prohibitive pieces of bureaucracy. Texas is one of the worst, but unfortunately for their teachers they're not adopting the Common Core standards. The Common Core standards are clear, fairly simple, and since they'll be more widely implemented there will be better educational material available addressing them. (I mean, I'm biased, but still.)
    Like hell they're going to adopt some pointy-headed ivory tower Yankee liberal's educational standards.

    Funny thing is, I don't exactly disagree with that perspective, either. Unified standards have their advantages, but they also play into the trend of framing education as a standardized commodity, with students as consumers, rather than learners. You see this often with the arguments that curricula must be uniform, so that the US does not "fall behind" relative to other countries, or become less "competitive." Unified standards also run the risk of promoting cultural obliteration, since schools are inherently institutions of acculturation as well as education.

    It's tricky, particularly when it comes to Southern states, because since the Civil War, the relationships among the several regions of this country have only nominally been that of equals. Functionally, the Northeastern establishment has had hegemonic control over the rest of the country, while the "flyover" states have operated more like colonies. (Unfortunately, when the tables are turned, a certain vengeful and paranoid malice arises in government. Wilson and Bush the Second are good examples of this). Incidentally, that's one of the biggest divides behind the Red State-Blue State distinction: the states oriented toward trade and manufacturing on one side, the resource-extraction and agricultural states on the other. The former exercised power through the dollar - the New York banks financed the Midwestern factories and coastal exchanges, while the resource-extraction/agricultural states remained dependent on them to buy their products, making them somewhat subservient.

    So, there's an understandable resistance to collective action by these states, assuming that the greater institutional power of those commercially-oriented "blue states" would allow them to dictate the terms of that action, possibly leading to cultural marginalization. It has to be unsettling to some that someone like me, who grew up just outside of Houston, speaks with an accent that is indistinguishable from that of a person from the middle of Ohio.

  2. #172
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is more important that I am a U.S. citizen than a resident of State X. Society is too mobile for people to have to understand and navigate a patchwork of 50 sets of laws, regulations, and standards, especially for something as important as education.
    In a country of this size, representation without federalism is about the same as democracy without individual rights. Incidentally, My family lived in no less than eight states (some multiple times) from all regions of the country (except the midwest) throughout my childhood.....'navigating a patchwork of 50 sets of laws, regulations, and standards' was never a particular problem.

  3. #173
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In a country of this size, representation without federalism is about the same as democracy without individual rights. Incidentally, My family lived in no less than eight states (some multiple times) from all regions of the country (except the midwest) throughout my childhood.....'navigating a patchwork of 50 sets of laws, regulations, and standards' was never a particular problem.
    A family is one thing. For various kinds of organizations (like businesses for example) varying state law can be a migraine.
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  4. #174
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    A family is one thing. For various kinds of organizations (like businesses for example) varying state law can be a migraine.
    True enough, but even for someone like myself who holds to a restrictive interpretation of the Commerce Clause, areas where federal standardization is Constitutionally permitted should be sufficient to take care of most such problems, and competition over time should be enough to take care of most everything else.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Like hell they're going to adopt some pointy-headed ivory tower Yankee liberal's educational standards.

    Funny thing is, I don't exactly disagree with that perspective, either. Unified standards have their advantages, but they also play into the trend of framing education as a standardized commodity, with students as consumers, rather than learners. You see this often with the arguments that curricula must be uniform, so that the US does not "fall behind" relative to other countries, or become less "competitive." Unified standards also run the risk of promoting cultural obliteration, since schools are inherently institutions of acculturation as well as education.

    It's tricky, particularly when it comes to Southern states, because since the Civil War, the relationships among the several regions of this country have only nominally been that of equals. Functionally, the Northeastern establishment has had hegemonic control over the rest of the country, while the "flyover" states have operated more like colonies. (Unfortunately, when the tables are turned, a certain vengeful and paranoid malice arises in government. Wilson and Bush the Second are good examples of this). Incidentally, that's one of the biggest divides behind the Red State-Blue State distinction: the states oriented toward trade and manufacturing on one side, the resource-extraction and agricultural states on the other. The former exercised power through the dollar - the New York banks financed the Midwestern factories and coastal exchanges, while the resource-extraction/agricultural states remained dependent on them to buy their products, making them somewhat subservient.

    So, there's an understandable resistance to collective action by these states, assuming that the greater institutional power of those commercially-oriented "blue states" would allow them to dictate the terms of that action, possibly leading to cultural marginalization. It has to be unsettling to some that someone like me, who grew up just outside of Houston, speaks with an accent that is indistinguishable from that of a person from the middle of Ohio.
    Pretty much this.

  6. #176
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In a country of this size, representation without federalism is about the same as democracy without individual rights. Incidentally, My family lived in no less than eight states (some multiple times) from all regions of the country (except the midwest) throughout my childhood.....'navigating a patchwork of 50 sets of laws, regulations, and standards' was never a particular problem.
    Perhaps at one time this was so, but modern technology makes it not only possible but relatively straightforward for individuals to engage at the national level. Instead of power being shared between the federal government and states, cities, and towns, it can be shared between the federal government and the people.

    You have been lucky with your interstate moving experience. I know people who have had to choose jobs with care so they are hired in a state where their child can get necessary educational interventions, or elderly parents reasonable medical insurance. I know other people who have not followed a spouse to a better job because of difficulties of getting their own professional licenses honored in the new state. There is no need for this kind of inconsistency.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #177
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I was right there until the Nazi thing.
    I was joking, mostly. But I do find misguided, if not dangerous, the opinion that our neighbor should be allowed to do whatever they want within their own borders, whether that be the family next door that abuses its children, the nation next door that massacres its citizens, or the state next door that wants to drag education back into the dark ages.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #178
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    This is interesting. Coming from somewhere as small as the UK makes it hard to imagine the internal issues of somewhere as big and diverse as the US.
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

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  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I was joking, mostly. But I do find misguided, if not dangerous, the opinion that our neighbor should be allowed to do whatever they want within their own borders, whether that be the family next door that abuses its children, the nation next door that massacres its citizens, or the state next door that wants to drag education back into the dark ages.
    And I find misguided the notion that the government should have the responsibility of forcing people to lead government approved lives.

  10. #180
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And I find misguided the notion that the government should have the responsibility of forcing people to lead government approved lives.
    So do I. Some of the U.S. states are worse about this than others. One of the jobs of the federal government is to set off-limits those individual rights that no state, county, or municipality may restrict.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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