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  1. #131
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It is interesting that people have different notions of what critical thinking is.
    To me it is a set of habits and skills. Critical thinking means asking questions, doing research, and acknowledging other points of view. Those are habits, and one must develop a certain mindfulness to do them frequently and indiscriminately. The skills involved are basically just skills of logic.
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  2. #132
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    In this instance, they as a group stated a value based stance regrading HOTS, OBD and "critical thinking" and then got flamed in an apparently irrational way as part of a political flame war-thus my innate stance will be to subtract values altogether and look at the evidence in front of me on the topic and make the decsion by myself, for myself on the topic based upon data and as unbaised a source as I can find. Irrational flaming is irrational. Irrational values are irrational. Overt dismissal of a person's value stance just because it doesnt match one's own is irrational. Thoughtful inquiery, as @ygolo presents, seems suitable and appropriate.
    Think of it this way. If we never had flamed, complained, and made a scene out of the platform, do you think a spokesman for their platform would have come out to talk about its inherent "typos?" The answer is most likely not.

    Do you think that people would have learned about this platform? Do you believe that the GOP would of said that this was an inherent "mistake." Do you even believe that they would think about changing this if people didn't talk about this? Most likely not. If you don't like something, you become vocal and push it. Irrational or not, "there were cries, but there was no one to hear it."

    The only unbiased source is the source coming from the platform itself. Every other source is just a guesstimate of what the platform was "intending." And as such, these sources has its inherent biases whether their goal was to appear as unbiased as possible or not.
    Last edited by Rail Tracer; 07-02-2012 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #133
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    To somebody who is convinced the moon is made from cheese, everybody teaching otherwise will seem biased.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #134
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    There actually might be a point to this though.

    We need people without critical thinking, who have no hope and no frame of reference outside of external systems, so that the basics of a society are carried through. There will most likely always be someone at the bottom cleaning the shit, there needs to be. If everyone was out reaching for the stars who is building the ladder to get there?

    I wanted to ignore this idea as it popped into my head, but guess what? That would be a supression of original thinking and perspectives, if not especially critical.

    See id love to believe that the above was not true, that we can all aspire to some dream we have, but the reality of most people's lives is so often the opposite.

    Some might say what does this have to do with critical thinking....well id say everything. People breaking out of established systems is the first sign of critical thinking, of looking at the components and the string ties and saying: 'Hey this doesnt have to fit like this' or 'Why do I need to do this?' And of course: 'There are so many flaws with this'.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    To me it is a set of habits and skills. Critical thinking means asking questions, doing research, and acknowledging other points of view. Those are habits, and one must develop a certain mindfulness to do them frequently and indiscriminately. The skills involved are basically just skills of logic.
    I think there's a maturational dimension too it too, liked to self-efficacy and self-regulation of mood/emotional responses too, if the opposing POV, or what your filters result in you imaging is or attributes to the opposing POV, evokes too much anger, despair or depression you're not going to be able to deal with it.

    There is, if you ask me, important emotional intelligence and social competence dimensions of critically thinking, a lot of the time people prefer comfortable dichotomies, binary opposites and locked in thinking to any alternative because its easier to handle emotionally, socially.

    I've known plenty of socialists who are pretty happy and comfortable, objectively, with class struggles, they'd invent them in their abscence, because it permits an underdog to identify with and they believe that doing so is corresponds to socialism as they understand it in its entirety. I've tried to talk to them about how this frame of reference and thinking actually contributes to sustaining the very things which they initially talk about wanting to see dispensed with but it just gets much to heated. The conclusion that "if you're not with us, you're against us" is too quickly jumped to and that's the end of it.

    And a lot of the time, like I've said before, critical thinking is often exclusively identified with being critical of the "other" or "other thinking".

  6. #136
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Critical thinking is one of the most important life skills you can learn. The school system is ridiculous. I also believe that financial planning should be in the school rhetoric but for some reason they don't teach that in grade school either.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    ...It really isnt any of my business what they believe-as long as they are not hurting other people with those beliefs via thier actions...[/B] *shrugs/yawns*
    That's not possible anymore.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #138
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    thread is tl;dr.
    is it supposed to be a promotion for critical thinking or just an insult of conservatism?

    from what little i did read, it sounds like it's just another mindless circle-jerk attack on republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "The position causing the most controversy, however, is the statement that they oppose the teaching of 'higher order thinking skills' -- a curriculum which strives to encourage critical thinking -- arguing that it might challenge "student's fixed beliefs" and undermine 'parental authority.'"
    i'm sure the real life context predicates that parents would prefer their authority not be waived to make way for the state's.
    and let's not kid ourselves: the idea that you can teach critical thinking is plainly idiotic.
    the only thing these kids can be taught are pillars of thought - widely [or not] accepted tenets, be they valid or not.

    besides that indisputable point, can you really blame a parent for wanting to teach their own kid their own beliefs?

    to give you an idea of how good our educators are:
    U.S. Economy: 1st place
    U.S. Education: 17th place
    a lot of good those schools are doing, huh?
    i oppose "critical thinking classes" on the principle that american education is clearly irrelevant.
    just because you call it "critical thinking" doesn't make it so.
    we fukin won boys

  9. #139
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    thread is tl;dr.
    is it supposed to be a promotion for critical thinking or just an insult of conservatism?

    from what little i did read, it sounds like it's just another mindless circle-jerk attack on republicans.
    I can see how someone speaking from a position of ignorance could come to that conclusion.

    i'm sure the real life context predicates that parents would prefer their authority not be waived to make way for the state's.
    and let's not kid ourselves: the idea that you can teach critical thinking is plainly idiotic.
    the only thing these kids can be taught are pillars of thought - widely [or not] accepted tenets, be they valid or not.
    Really? If you're talking about 5 year old kids I might agree with you, but high school age children are absolutely able to be taught critical thinking.

    besides that indisputable point, can you really blame a parent for wanting to teach their own kid their own beliefs?
    No, but that doesn't excuse a party platform that is pro-ignorance. And that's what this is about, the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform.

    to give you an idea of how good our educators are:
    U.S. Economy: 1st place
    U.S. Education: 17th place
    a lot of good those schools are doing, huh?
    i oppose "critical thinking classes" on the principle that american education is clearly irrelevant.
    just because you call it "critical thinking" doesn't make it so.
    You're going to have to expand on this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #140
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I can see how someone speaking from a position of ignorance could come to that conclusion.
    great start to what continued on as a solid post!
    Really?
    yes. really. if you can't figure that out... welp, there's not a lot i or anyone else can do for you.
    If you're talking about 5 year old kids I might agree with you, but high school age children are absolutely able to be taught critical thinking.
    that's provably false.
    No, but that doesn't excuse a party platform that is pro-ignorance. And that's what this is about, the 2012 Texas Republican Party Platform.
    this is just not fair. you democrat folk create an absurd policy, ripe with land mines and and pitfalls, then defend it by plastering it with an impenetrable wall of unjust bullshit rhetoric that makes any opposition sound necessarily cave-man-like.

    i don't like to call myself a republican or conservative, but i couldn't live with myself if i was found to be liberal.

    You're going to have to expand on this.
    no i'm not. i've said my peace.
    we fukin won boys

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