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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    There are a few problems with this. First, someone's going to have control of the nukes and the guns. Like it or not, who ever that is rules the country, because they have sufficient force to enact their will unopposed from anyone else within the country. So you're likely looking at a military dictatorship with a democratic veneer, only voting on those matters which are not "critical to national security." Meanwhile, you've got a massive, entrenched bureaucracy that has been deemed necessary to enact "the will of the people," and will likely do so in whatever way it sees fit.

    The problem with this system is that it preserves the massive institution while removing all of the institutional safeguards.
    Who says anything about removing Safeguards, Civil review unions can be formed and should be formed to review all the activities carried out. no one is stopping this system from implementing the institutions it seems necessary.

    I think you are missing the full potential of direct democracy. It is far more fluent and adaptable then the current form.

    Well yes a military dictatorship is a real threat during any social change and when i have studied the history of revolutions I find the counter revolution to be our biggest problem. the counterrevolution usually happens from a violent overthrow of a government. So this is something we need to avoid offcource we will defend ourselves but we need to stay true to the non violence principle.

    Nukes and guns are a problem, mostly heavy weapons. To avoid this I think the best solution is to make the social change so grounded in grass roots movement that it becomes an unconscious part of people. In Spain they had independent schools, vibrant unions, and ran project for a long time before they had the chance to take place in 1936 before they suffered the counter revolution because the Anarchist parties trusted the Communists, which turned on them and put them in prison and then it whent back to a state.

    However I dont see something like this happening over night. It is a decade long process involving, Unions, Schools, Cooperative banks, Ideal sports organizations, Energy cooperations, and so on. We need to learn how to manage ourselves and expand that until the timing is right so that we can run everything overselves. There might be people trying to take power and threaten us, but should that scare away us from progress?

    But dismantaling nukes is high on my priority.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think trolls, libertarians or hackers would ruin it. Possible a combination of all three.
    I like all three
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    I like all three
    Thanks for sharing I dont. Infact I'd not mind seeing them all engulfed in some sort of time space correction with would blink them out of existence.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Thanks for sharing I dont. Infact I'd not mind seeing them all engulfed in some sort of time space correction with would blink them out of existence.
    Haha c'mon first of all Hackers do not destroy things they are just interested in information and puzzles its Crackers that destroy. Classic Liberalism is awesome however most people that are liberals are Neo-liberals or Market-liberals, they are retards perverting Adam Smiths words like fundamentalist gay bashing Christians do Jesus. Trolls are fun if you remember to feed them when you want to play with them and starve them when you don't.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    And why is unity so importent? once again you can argue that for dictatorship "With dictatorship you can have more unity then with a representive democracy". Is not freedom more importent? and how far did that "unity of vision" take you with Obamas "Change"? what happen since that? did he do anything right?

    The opposite of Congress must be progress
    I'm only going to respond to this little bit of your post because I'm too lazy to try and educate you on the rest (given that you're from Sweden).

    Try and get substantive legislation passed in Italy in a timely manner, and you will know why unity is important.

    Italy has a ton of political parties (many of which are local or regional). The more unified bodies (with differing goals) within the polity, the harder it is to come to any sort of consensus on anything. This problem is compounded by the size of the country in question, and the complexity of it's political process.

    With the direct internet democracy model each individual with independent goals would become a unified body within the American polity.

    Say the country is attacked, and we need to make a decision now about responding, but it happens to be Thanks giving, and not everyone is in a, lets all go to the computer and vote on shit mood.

    More to the point, how long do you think it would take to get how ever many voting age people to agree on a response to said attack?

    By the time you've come to an agreement, it's too late to respond.

  6. #46
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    I'm just glad for once we're having a decent thread on politics.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #47
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    No you only responded to that bit cause you dont live in a democracy. I'm not attacking you as a person but the sooner you realize it the better.

    Do you really lack imagination and creativity that much or are you just bent on protecting the Status quo. Like I said before there are tons of things that can happen one example is to establish certain emergency protocols to be executed. I can think of several ways to do this, you can have a pre-vote or just elect a Representative for this sort of situation.

    You know that is what institutions do today, plan for certain scenarios? Do you really think those people just disappear with a new form of govermnet?

    Hmm strange it works in unions, in political parties, the Parliament seems to manage it. So why coulden't other people? are union people smarter, or politicians? When people manage their own affairs and gain esperience im sure they will be great at it. Why would it be so hard?

    once again (I have probably stated this 5-10 times in this thread) if one should take your argument serious. Why not have a dictatorship? it would move even faster, in fact its one of the arguments used, why should there be democracy at all it just takes time. Well what is more important, Democracy or efficiency?
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    No you only responded to that bit cause you dont live in a democracy. I'm not attacking you as a person but the sooner you realize it the better.

    Do you really lack imagination and creativity that much or are you just bent on protecting the Status quo. Like I said before there are tons of things that can happen one example is to establish certain emergency protocols to be executed. I can think of several ways to do this, you can have a pre-vote or just elect a Representative for this sort of situation.

    You know that is what institutions do today, plan for certain scenarios? Do you really think those people just disappear with a new form of govermnet?

    Hmm strange it works in unions, in political parties, the Parliament seems to manage it. So why coulden't other people? are union people smarter, or politicians? When people manage their own affairs and gain esperience im sure they will be great at it. Why would it be so hard?

    once again (I have probably stated this 5-10 times in this thread) if one should take your argument serious. Why not have a dictatorship? it would move even faster, in fact its one of the arguments used, why should there be democracy at all it just takes time. Well what is more important, Democracy or efficiency?
    You're saying I lack imagination and creativity yet you can't see the difference between a functioning republic and a dictatorship.

    No amount of planning is going to speed the process of getting 200+ million Americans to compromise amongst themselves however ever many times a month or year they have to vote.

    You said some things in that post which are making me a little angry.

    If you respond to this...

    Mind your words.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You're saying I lack imagination and creativity yet you can't see the difference between a functioning republic and a dictatorship
    No because you asked a question that obviously you cant respond to in that manner and one has to find a different solution. I see a big difference between them, now tell me can you see the similarities?

    No amount of planning is going to speed the process of getting 200+ million Americans to compromise amongst themselves however ever many times a month or year they have to vote.
    Thats like your opinion it does not get more real because you repeat it. I don't agree. people used to say Ordinary democracy was to slow that it wouldn't work and was not practical. There are several solutions. Maybe this is not the best solution but im a strong believer in freedom and dont think we are as free as we could be.

    You said some things in that post which are making me a little angry.

    If you respond to this...

    Mind your words.
    What seriously? I said you lack imagination and creativity and made an comparison with your argument and the argument of people that used to defend dictatorship, and aid America is not a democracy and you're getting mad? I even said that im in no way attacking you as a person, I had no intention on that but are starting to give it some serious thought now when I read "mind your words" and "If you respond to this...". What in my words could have possibly went outside the frame of the debate?

    It seems to me you are trying to intimidate me to keep quiet on the internet? as long as i have my freedom of speech no one is gonna shut me up. And if you did not try to intimidate me and you think I said something that hurt your feelings or something tell me what...cause I never went to personal attack and I certainly did not try to intimidate you. And if you cant handle people telling you things without going on to getting angry and using intimidation then maybe you should not be on a discussion board in the first place.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    No because you asked a question that obviously you cant respond to in that manner and one has to find a different solution. I see a big difference between them, now tell me can you see the similarities?
    The similarities are that someone stands between the people and the ability to steer where the country is going. The difference is that the people have a say in electing representatives, and representatives don't serve for life.

    Don't talk down to me like you actually think I'm that dumb...

    I'm not.

    Thats like your opinion it does not get more real because you repeat it. I don't agree. people used to say Ordinary democracy was to slow that it wouldn't work and was not practical. There are several solutions. Maybe this is not the best solution but im a strong believer in freedom and dont think we are as free as we could be.
    I think forcing or attempting to involve the people so directly in the nuts and bolts of governance would do more harm than good. First because, as others have stated, the people generally, even with the glorious awesomeness of the internet, still don't have time to form a seriously informed opinion about shit.

    They can barely form an opinion about who to vote for, or even where they stand on most issues.

    It would not be an efficient use of the people's time to have to all study this shit for a vote that they would probably not even care about anyway.

    Not to mention the fact that making it that easy to vote for shit is a recipe for corruption and fraud (even more than we have today).

    I'm not trying to say the public is dumb here, what I'm trying to say is that, it takes so much time to get even remedial knowledge on most issues, that it would be unreasonable to expect the people to be able (or even want to) vote on most bills.

    That being said, I'm a HUGE proponent of congress posting prospective legislation online for the public to read prior to the vote on the bill.

    What seriously? I said you lack imagination and creativity and made an comparison with your argument and the argument of people that used to defend dictatorship, and aid America is not a democracy and you're getting mad? I even said that im in no way attacking you as a person, I had no intention on that but are starting to give it some serious thought now when I read "mind your words" and "If you respond to this...". What in my words could have possibly went outside the frame of the debate?

    It seems to me you are trying to intimidate me to keep quiet on the internet? as long as i have my freedom of speech no one is gonna shut me up. And if you did not try to intimidate me and you think I said something that hurt your feelings or something tell me what...cause I never went to personal attack and I certainly did not try to intimidate you. And if you cant handle people telling you things without going on to getting angry and using intimidation then maybe you should not be on a discussion board in the first place.
    I'm angry because you keep talking down to me, like a self superior douche nozzle.

    You can spout your ridiculous opinions all you want.

    It's a free country and a free internet.

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