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  1. #21
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    There are no qualifications for being a politician.
    I know, don't remind me that that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    This is a real problem, but so is the pentagon, CIA, IRS, Major corporations. and it seems to work fairly well anyways. I'm not to worried about that aspect. but security must be high and there must be ways to know if its been breached.
    The thing with public systems though, they can never be 100% protected. Peoples log in codes can be easily stolen so you'd need to work with an authenticator. And even those have not be proven to be fullproof protection, as hackers can still mimick your IP or use your IP as a proxy if they manage to get some malware on your PC, and surf on your logged in cookies to avoid login/authentication alltogether. With no one being able to see the hack is in progress unless the owner of the login details continously checks their input statusses..
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #22
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    No, imo powerful interests would hack it to rig elections. Even worse than the overturning of citizens united
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I know, don't remind me that that.

    The thing with public systems though, they can never be 100% protected. Peoples log in codes can be easily stolen so you'd need to work with an authenticator. And even those have not be proven to be fullproof protection, as hackers can still mimick your IP or use your IP as a proxy if they manage to get some malware on your PC, and surf on your logged in cookies to avoid login/authentication alltogether. With no one being able to see the hack is in progress unless the owner of the login details continously checks their input statusses..
    Well their are asy ways to go around that. Dont you have an Internet bank? you use an eCode Authenticator? looks like a small calculator with a slot for a bankcard. That but instead of a bankcard some sort of voter card. You log in with the encrypted key toy get from the eCode Authenticator and a pincode.

    I just looked at www.Todos.se the company that made my eCode authenticator and it seems they already have made the program witch im speaking of but not including all the functions, Although it seems it takes minimal reprogramming to make it do that. The program is called "Coesys eGov 2.0 V3 - User-friendly eGovernment services even more inclusive". There was a preview of the program available but its in Swedish, i tried translating it but the translator couldn't said it was secured and not able to translate.

    What I'm saying is if you can do your taxes and banking online and that works, i doubt other stuff would be problematic given the same level of security. Sure there problems but I see solutions
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  4. #24
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    Well their are asy ways to go around that. Dont you have an Internet bank? you use an eCode Authenticator? looks like a small calculator with a slot for a bankcard. That but instead of a bankcard some sort of voter card. You log in with the encrypted key toy get from the eCode Authenticator and a pincode.

    I just looked at www.Todos.se the company that made my eCode authenticator and it seems they already have made the program witch im speaking of but not including all the functions, Although it seems it takes minimal reprogramming to make it do that. The program is called "Coesys eGov 2.0 V3 - User-friendly eGovernment services even more inclusive". There was a preview of the program available but its in Swedish, i tried translating it but the translator couldn't said it was secured and not able to translate.

    What I'm saying is if you can do your taxes and banking online and that works, i doubt other stuff would be problematic given the same level of security. Sure there problems but I see solutions
    Yeah, I just said you can even circumvent those authenticators if you can get a malprogram to run on a computer that uses it as a login.
    When you log into somewhere after authenitcating, your browser will save some cookies and the server will accept your IP for the duration you stay logged in, a hacker can then use your connection as a proxy and surf on the website without having to give either a password or an authentication key, as long as he copies the account owners cookies. The server will just see an increase of connection impulses from the same IP and won't register anything being wrong.

    No system is fullproof. Not even authenticators.


    Anyhow, I wont derail the thrad further, this was just one little arguement. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  5. #25
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Republican democracy in the modern world has become so twisted that its become a joke and a cesspool of corruption. Support a Constitutional Amendment in the USA to allow an internet direct democracy. Naturally there would have to be some form of protocol and procedures to prevent a tyranny and overreaction by the mostly uneducated and easily manipulated (conned) majority as well as computer hacking.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Yeah, I just said you can even circumvent those authenticators if you can get a malprogram to run on a computer that uses it as a login.
    When you log into somewhere after authenitcating, your browser will save some cookies and the server will accept your IP for the duration you stay logged in, a hacker can then use your connection as a proxy and surf on the website without having to give either a password or an authentication key, as long as he copies the account owners cookies. The server will just see an increase of connection impulses from the same IP and won't register anything being wrong.

    No system is fullproof. Not even authenticators.


    Anyhow, I wont derail the thrad further, this was just one little arguement. :P
    yeah but dont you have to write in an additional code for authenticating any changes you make on your bank? so even if it leaves an cookie saying its okay, and someone proxy your IP you wont have an additonal code to change anything. Aswell my bank wont let me open two windows at the same time then it tells me I'm already logged in and cant do two sessions and I use a program to remove cookies.

    No offcource its not foolproof but Banks today are pretty safe, i've never had my account hacked.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  7. #27
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    No, imo powerful interests would hack it to rig elections. Even worse than the overturning of citizens united
    Agree with this 100%. This would be corrupted so quickly, your head would spin.

    This is an interesting idea, @Myrtle, but you might be a little optimistic on a couple of points. For example, you mention that selling votes could be a problem, but that it's no real issue, because doing that is illegal anyway. This analysis is somewhat naive. If the price is right, people will ignore the vote-selling prohibition, because they either need the money, don't think they'll get caught, or don't care all that much about their votes.

    It's also easy to take for granted that those with money and power often have interests at odds with ordinary citizens, and that the whole point of having that money and power is to be able to pursue those interests despite opposition.

    I don't necessarily agree with @Lateralus' particularly dim view of ordinary people in the public forum, but I do think that engagement would be an issue, for a few reasons. First is that most people just don't have time to engage with politics, because they're too exhausted from having to work or take care of their families. Along with this, many issues of vast importance are defined by extremely subtle details, that require a good bit of understanding to make a reasonable judgment. That being said, our legislatures are terrible at this, too.

    The primary issue with this plan for this particular country, and it's hard to understand unless you're from the US or live here, is how unbelievably huge the US is, both in land area and in population. There are innumerable issues that require federal attention, but have little to no influence on peoples' lives thousands of kilometers away. A good example of this is the continuing dispute over water rights in the Southwest, an issue that only has relatively attenuated economic connections with the well-watered East. People in the East would have little-to-no understanding of their own interests in the dispute, or possibly that there even was a dispute to begin with.

    Direct Democracy is fantastic when it encompasses a scope that suits all participants. However, the larger the institution gets, the less it is about serving the people, and instead more about keeping the great, impersonal machinery of the State and Civilization running.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vizconde View Post
    Republican democracy in the modern world has become so twisted that its become a joke and a cesspool of corruption. Support a Constitutional Amendment in the USA to allow an internet direct democracy. Naturally there would have to be some form of protocol and procedures to prevent a tyranny and overreaction by the mostly uneducated and easily manipulated (conned) majority as well as computer hacking.
    Yes democracy to me is a joke. Yeah one might wanna be conservative at first. run some trials in towns or let one put a fraction of ones taxes where one pleases. I think the important thing is moving forward. Then its hard to say what kind of restrictions you have the right to put on people but its hard even for me to believe it would work with all this propaganda. But I have faith most people can see thru it and if they dont hopefully not do so big mistakes that they cant learn from it
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Agree with this 100%. This would be corrupted so quickly, your head would spin.
    I'm not sure, why would it be more susceptible to corruption just because its on the Internet? The governments are already corrupted and its something we should work against. But to think its undoable? How many that skilled hackers are there out there that could hack something that we would try to make the most secure ever? and how many of them are morally culpable? I seldom see Banks getting hacked nowadays.

    This is an interesting idea, @Myrtle, but you might be a little optimistic on a couple of points. For example, you mention that selling votes could be a problem, but that it's no real issue, because doing that is illegal anyway. This analysis is somewhat naive. If the price is right, people will ignore the vote-selling prohibition, because they either need the money, don't think they'll get caught, or don't care all that much about their votes.
    Yeah I'm probably to optimistic, I try to live at an optimistic plane but be aware of the realistic one. Well then again buying enough votes to make an impact would be very costly, and it demands that the economy is bad and people need money. Sure it could happen but people could be bought out today in Representative democracy. I think its cheaper to use propaganda.

    Laws are hard and every law may be broken, usually its easier to structure a society in which noone wants to break the law that to is a good measure of democracy.

    It's also easy to take for granted that those with money and power often have interests at odds with ordinary citizens, and that the whole point of having that money and power is to be able to pursue those interests despite opposition.
    I agree and I am fully aware of that, any push towards more freedom and democracy in history has been faced with great repression so it would be naive to think that won't happen again.

    I don't necessarily agree with @Lateralus' particularly dim view of ordinary people in the public forum, but I do think that engagement would be an issue, for a few reasons. First is that most people just don't have time to engage with politics, because they're too exhausted from having to work or take care of their families. Along with this, many issues of vast importance are defined by extremely subtle details, that require a good bit of understanding to make a reasonable judgment. That being said, our legislatures are terrible at this, too.
    Well isen't it time we lowered the work day to six hours? Its not doable you'll say, look at the current economy. Well it's what they said about 8 hours. But taking in higher employment rates, which saves money with less social security being paid out and more taxes coming in its very doable. Maybe not politically cause most politicians get their fundings from major corporations and they don't like the idea of getting a little less huge pile of money instead of the enormous ones they get today.

    The primary issue with this plan for this particular country, and it's hard to understand unless you're from the US or live here, is how unbelievably huge the US is, both in land area and in population. There are innumerable issues that require federal attention, but have little to no influence on peoples' lives thousands of kilometers away. A good example of this is the continuing dispute over water rights in the Southwest, an issue that only has relatively attenuated economic connections with the well-watered East. People in the East would have little-to-no understanding of their own interests in the dispute, or possibly that there even was a dispute to begin with.
    Well direct democracy usually says that one has a right to vote in anything that effects you directly. The rest is none of your business. so I don't see that being problematic at all. To an the extent of which its possible you have most things local or state wise. If you need to send Representatives for meetings or something or make small focus groups, why not do it.

    The exact structure of the system may greatly vary. Some communes might chose to have elected leaders, or focus groups that. Some may want the unions to run. Some might have mixed. some might keep some parts of the government. And the different cities and states might have shared interestes such as highways and new trains and high speed railway for which you need to communicate and send delagets. I dont think theres one fixed structural model here. Just that we need to move on I'm tired of representative democracy and I can see it turning into a joke before my eyes

    Just redistribute the power, down up instead of up down. There are so many real applications that are not stuck with the old hierarchical systems which has no validity in my eyes.

    Direct Democracy is fantastic when it encompasses a scope that suits all participants. However, the larger the institution gets, the less it is about serving the people, and instead more about keeping the great, impersonal machinery of the State and Civilization running.
    Hmm Civilization do we have that? yes the larger it gets, thats why we should keep most things that we can local. And I think there is ways that "encompasses a scope that suits all participants" its just about everyone finding them, probably with trial and error.

    But maybe I'm abit a radical, to optimistic and a risk taker. Most people probably wanna continue on with the status que, but I know that if they look closley and move out of their bubble for just a second the will see The cold cruel calculating machine and all the horror that it brings to the world.

    I'm against the Machine like rage!
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  10. #30
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    I'm not sure, why would it be more susceptible to corruption just because its on the Internet? The governments are already corrupted and its something we should work against. But to think its undoable? How many that skilled hackers are there out there that could hack something that we would try to make the most secure ever? and how many of them are morally culpable? I seldom see Banks getting hacked nowadays.
    There are a lot more hackers than you think. Plenty of them are against any sort of state whatsoever, and would relish the opportunity to wreak havoc on the government. In their mind, they are fully morally justified, because the state is an inherent abomination and the primary threat to human freedom. I can't say I disagree with them entirely.

    I believe the corruption can be attenuated, but ultimately will never go away entirely. That is a result of the nature of government - it is the means by which the ruling class justifies its authority. Those in the ruling class aren't there because they play fairly, but rather because they do not have to play fairly. They can use their resources (money, social connections, government benefit of the doubt) to make sure they have an insurmountable advantage in the system, starting with acceptance to a prestigious university.

    With such a voting system, a breach of the security system, just like any security system, would only require a sufficient amount of resources and time. Given that the business of government is the allocation of public wealth, those whose power relies on this allocation would have a strong incentive to game the system to their benefit, and likely the resources to do so.

    Finally, banks don't get hacked because those with the resources to successfully hack them would inevitably already have plenty of money, making it so that the risk associated with such a caper far outweighs the potential rewards.

    Yeah I'm probably to optimistic, I try to live at an optimistic plane but be aware of the realistic one. Well then again buying enough votes to make an impact would be very costly, and it demands that the economy is bad and people need money. Sure it could happen but people could be bought out today in Representative democracy. I think its cheaper to use propaganda.

    Laws are hard and every law may be broken, usually its easier to structure a society in which noone wants to break the law that to is a good measure of democracy.
    You're absolutely right - political propaganda is used precisely because it's less expensive than the more direct means of getting out the vote that were once used. Furthermore, there are plenty of people who legitimately profit off the breaking of laws, and would prefer that as many people break those laws as possible. These people tend to make lots of campaign contributions.

    I agree and I am fully aware of that, any push towards more freedom and democracy in history has been faced with great repression so it would be naive to think that won't happen again.
    Just look at what happened with the Occupy movement. The core principles were direct democracy and self-sufficiency, but it didn't take long before the government, "conceived in liberty," clamped down upon them and forced them out violently.

    Well isen't it time we lowered the work day to six hours? Its not doable you'll say, look at the current economy. Well it's what they said about 8 hours. But taking in higher employment rates, which saves money with less social security being paid out and more taxes coming in its very doable. Maybe not politically cause most politicians get their fundings from major corporations and they don't like the idea of getting a little less huge pile of money instead of the enormous ones they get today.
    I agree that a living wage on a shorter workweek is the primary thing that a state ought to be working toward. However, the neoliberal ideology is centered on "global competitiveness" and "enhanced productivity," that is, the reduction of costs incurred by every labor input. Meanwhile, technology continues to eliminate jobs entirely, rather than just reduce work burdens. Finally, in the US, labor and trade unions are very weak, leading to little equity in wage negotiations.

    Well direct democracy usually says that one has a right to vote in anything that effects you directly. The rest is none of your business. so I don't see that being problematic at all. To an the extent of which its possible you have most things local or state wise. If you need to send Representatives for meetings or something or make small focus groups, why not do it.

    The exact structure of the system may greatly vary. Some communes might chose to have elected leaders, or focus groups that. Some may want the unions to run. Some might have mixed. some might keep some parts of the government. And the different cities and states might have shared interestes such as highways and new trains and high speed railway for which you need to communicate and send delagets. I dont think theres one fixed structural model here. Just that we need to move on I'm tired of representative democracy and I can see it turning into a joke before my eyes

    Just redistribute the power, down up instead of up down. There are so many real applications that are not stuck with the old hierarchical systems which has no validity in my eyes.
    I'm tired of our current way of doing things, too. It's very complicated to make these sorts of sweeping changes, however, in a country of 315 million people that spans over 5000 km from end to end. Furthermore, our current system does not look kindly upon those who seek to implement down-up power, calling them demagogues, or worse, in the history books. Huey Long from Louisiana in the 1930s is a representative case.

    Hmm Civilization do we have that? yes the larger it gets, thats why we should keep most things that we can local. And I think there is ways that "encompasses a scope that suits all participants" its just about everyone finding them, probably with trial and error.

    But maybe I'm abit a radical, to optimistic and a risk taker. Most people probably wanna continue on with the status que, but I know that if they look closley and move out of their bubble for just a second the will see The cold cruel calculating machine and all the horror that it brings to the world.

    I'm against the Machine like rage!
    Of course we have civilization. It's the source of everything that bothers you.

    Stay optimistic. The world needs people like you. Just remember what Voltaire said, though - il faut cultiver notre jardin

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