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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's true, but I was speaking in a more theoretical respect. Most people who "educate" themselves are really just seeking validation for things they already believe.

    Getting rid of the name, too, would be interesting. Unfortunately, this would require political candidate's positions to be distilled down to something short that would probably lack nuance. It would also require the people making the ballots to decide which issues are important because it's not practical to list every single issue on a ballot. Voting could take forever then, and that would probably discourage many people from participating.
    Yeah thats why I think direct democracy via Internet, its easy, you can do it when you have time and get all the info needed. And if you want you can choose a rep.

    Sure people like to validate their opinions thats how the brain works, it takes massive amounts of data that disproves what you think to change your opinion. But why would this be less true in an educational setting?

    Wouldn't that institute to have an agenda? funders to please?

    I think that you need a basic framework to validate information like basic science theory for example. And then you need someone to question your work/theories (if you do any).
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    Yes. That drives me crazy more than anything. People pick a position before really researching it... And then their research tends to be completely biased and they look for anything and everything that supports what they believe.
    Yeah popplers falsification method is great. I actually love reading the other side of my opinions first of all to be able to see it their way and see if we agree, and second of all to not be lost debating issues. And I have changed my political believes three times, but Freedom and democracy has always been my values.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    It's a Flaw in the human nature, now is it? first of all what is human nature? how do you define it? Because as I see humans we have changed radically over the 250 000 years we have existed. We have gone from cavemen to hunter-gather to agricultural to feodalism to State capitalism. So I think stating something as "human nature" is a faulty argument cause there is no such thing. Would cannbalism be human nature? cooperation? competition? there are all of these societies it dosent mean its human nature. Today we have a society that thrives on competition hence people are fed via the media that "humans are competetive by nature" no its by culture not nature.

    I know people are interested but without control they feel like it dosent matter. People are highly interested in what schools there children go to, what kind of care there elderly get, how safe their workplace is and what kind of social security they get. I hear ordinary people talking about this every day but their at the hands of their elected leaders.

    I strongly believe that with more responsibility people will get more interested. There just isen't any point today cause they have no control.
    People take the path of least resistance. I don't see what's so difficult to understand here. You could try to force people to educate themselves, but then all you're really doing is trading one set of problems for another (like who gets to decide what "properly educated is" and so on).

    I think this is a serious misconception, cause most people I meat are interested talking and learning if you talk their language but media has brainwashed them into idiots. So i think a more correct statement is "Media has made people not interested".
    There might be an element of truth to this. The 24/7 cable news sphere has had an overall negative impact on politics in the US, IMO.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    Yeah thats why I think direct democracy via Internet, its easy, you can do it when you have time and get all the info needed. And if you want you can choose a rep.

    Sure people like to validate their opinions thats how the brain works,
    Are you saying it's human nature?

    it takes massive amounts of data that disproves what you think to change your opinion. But why would this be less true in an educational setting?

    Wouldn't that institute to have an agenda? funders to please?

    I think that you need a basic framework to validate information like basic science theory for example. And then you need someone to question your work/theories (if you do any).
    Something like this might work better in Sweden than in US where there is a fundamental distrust of "science" by some people. I just find it hard to imagine a majority of people actually doing the work necessary to educate themselves. Some will "run away" because the data refutes their beliefs. Some people are just lazy. What I see most people doing is saying "fuck this" and going back to watching Jersey Shore.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    People take the path of least resistance. I don't see what's so difficult to understand here. You could try to force people to educate themselves, but then all you're really doing is trading one set of problems for another (like who gets to decide what "properly educated is" and so on).
    Path of least resistance is electrodynamics and hydro not people. People are way to multifaceted to say that their main objective is that. I would never force people to educate themselves, IMO we shoulden't even force them to go to school in the first place, or have a set curriculum or grades.

    And I have several friends who are College teacher one of which did his rhetoric speech on how grades are counterproductive, and they agree. My mother is a special pedagogue and agrees to some extent on all this.

    What I think needs to happen is free independent media, therefore I support it every chance I get. I regular donate money to independent media channels and they are great. Doing so hopefully we can increase the worlds perspective. As well I ran Documentary movies in the library open to the public, many people showed up. There are also several Independent organizations in Sweden providing free education in many different topics.

    But only remembering that Schools came out of grass roots movements should give some indication that people want this. It got taken over by the state and made into correctional disciplinarian institutions that form obedient workers, not free thinking individuals. I would also argue that the higher educated someone are within the given society the more indoctrinated they are in the current societies norm. Its hard to have a self destruct mechanism installed in your institution and expect to keep you in power.

    There might be an element of truth to this. The 24/7 cable news sphere has had an overall negative impact on politics in the US, IMO.
    Yeah ever read manufacturing consent by Noam Chomsky? or even seem the movie Outfoxed :P their sources are "some people say" haha! ridiculus journalism, but we have freedom of speech so we shouldent stop them.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Are you saying it's human nature?
    HAHA funny guy maybe one could say that, but neurologically what I read it's how it works. I believe the brain has certain features we cant escape, but society wise, and behavior are bu many cultural, look up epi-genetics.

    Something like this might work better in Sweden than in US where there is a fundamental distrust of "science" by some people. I just find it hard to imagine a majority of people actually doing the work necessary to educate themselves. Some will "run away" because the data refutes their beliefs. Some people are just lazy. What I see most people doing is saying "fuck this" and going back to watching Jersey Shore.
    Yeah us is classed as being the most fundamentalist Christian country on earth and Christians where never that fond of science. Yeah I get that alot that people are lazy, but i think it has a lot to do with what motivates someone, I mean i'm pretty lazy to. But I don't want to fill my head with crap.

    However if you give them responsibility and actual control I think they will act accordingly. And if not, like I said they can choose a represantive, or diffrent, thats not harder then voting and they do that (or wait 20% of Americans do it, but then again in polls its shows that they think it dosen't matter, proving my point).

    Dont you think people given choice and responsibility would act more responsible?

    And again the argument you're using is the same that was used to deter representive democracy in the first place, should we go back to some sort of technocratic or a king? tsaar?

    I just see the natural progression of democracy.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    Yeah us is classed as being the most fundamentalist Christian country on earth and Christians where never that fond of science. Yeah I get that alot that people are lazy, but i think it has a lot to do with what motivates someone, I mean i'm pretty lazy to. But I don't want to fill my head with crap.
    The US might be the most religious developed nation, but I find it hard to believe it's the most religious predominately Christian nation in the entire world.

    However if you give them responsibility and actual control I think they will act accordingly. And if not, like I said they can choose a represantive, or diffrent, thats not harder then voting and they do that (or wait 20% of Americans do it, but then again in polls its shows that they think it dosen't matter, proving my point).
    At the local level and state levels people might feel more involved, but at the national level, we're all just 1 out of 300 million. I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to feel like they have some sort of "control" when you're just one person in such a populated country.

    Dont you think people given choice and responsibility would act more responsible?

    And again the argument you're using is the same that was used to deter representive democracy in the first place, should we go back to some sort of technocratic or a king? tsaar?

    I just see the natural progression of democracy.
    I think many people are confused by choice. Strictly theoretically speaking, choice seems like it is inherently good, but our societies are so complex and we're bombarded with so much information that it can be exhausting for many people.

    I think we have to reform the educational system before we can make real progress with governmental structure.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The US might be the most religious developed nation, but I find it hard to believe it's the most religious predominately Christian nation in the entire world.
    "The U.S. is one of the most extreme religious fundamentalist cultures in the world; not the state, but the popular culture. In the Islamic world, the most extreme fundamentalist state, apart from the Taliban, is Saudi Arabia, a U.S. client state since its origins" Noam Chomsky, the book 9-11

    At the local level and state levels people might feel more involved, but at the national level, we're all just 1 out of 300 million. I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to feel like they have some sort of "control" when you're just one person in such a populated country. That's one of the reasons why I think this is more viable for a nation like Sweden.
    I think local and state is more important many times. Maybe they wouldn't but the Irak war would never have happen for example. Vietnam wouldn't have gone on as long as it did. So there are times when the people could exercise this type of control. Maybe I should state that I don't really believe in nation states at all but thats to far in the future to even project.

    [QUOTE]
    I think many people are confused by choice. Strictly theoretically speaking, choice seems like it is inherently good, but our societies are so complex and we're bombarded with so much information that it can be exhausting for many people.[QUOTE]

    Again common rhetoric from dictators. Offcource its not inherently good, but its my choice. Why should someone else have power over me? there is a huge burden of proof that one has to bear to exercise authority over someone else. And I just cant see how some institutions in society have the right and so many people just take it for granted.

    Maybe freedom isen't the best system (but I'm very sure it is) even so, shouldent one be free to decide for oneself what is best? If we start arguing that Freedom is bad, where does it end?

    I think we have to reform the educational system before we can make real progress with governmental structure.
    I agree here if you take away the before I think it goes hand in hand. We need to change its direction from creating and obedient workforce to creating free thinking individuals whom can fulfill their potential. But i'm not sure if thats even possible within a State-capitalist society like yours and mine.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

  9. #19
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrtle View Post
    As we all know we live in a highly technological society. And i think we should keep moving democracy forward.

    What do you think about this idea: Instead of election you have an account on the "government" where you can log in. Here you can enter several sections the two biggest would be the economy and the proposition section.

    In the economy section you can freely place your tax-money where you please, and discuss and vote for different economical policies. If you are on the school board or hospital board for you can ask for more money and directly tell why you need it to the public.

    In the proposition section you can read and add new propositions for which the public gets to vote. There should be an added discussion section to each proposition, a section with media relevant and scientific research relevant to this proposition.

    If a person wishes to "vote" one can always choose a representative in one or several areas or different representatives in one or several areas. But always with the right to change ones decision.

    I see several pitfalls of this system, but like all systems there is pitfalls. One problem are would be if people sell votes but thats illegal today so I don't see that as a problem.

    As far as corporations go they might wanna place there tax-money freely as well and doing so the could severely damage or give big disadvantages to areas that have lower tax ratings or let you dump toxic waste and so on. If they should have that right is surely up for debate and should be put to a vote, but I would argue that people have rights and corporations don't so people should have the right to place their tax money.

    What do you think?
    I think it's a nice idea. Just not very practical. First of it would only work if everyone was equally informed and have the same ability to understand the complications of many different aspects. Voting for a representative that can think for you seems to be the most practical solution for now.

    Also, it'd probably be subject to hackers and the likes which would make it very hard to operate on such a platform.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I think it's a nice idea. Just not very practical. First of it would only work if everyone was equally informed and have the same ability to understand the complications of many different aspects. Voting for a representative that can think for you seems to be the most practical solution for now.
    But voting for a representative you aren't "equally informed and have the same ability to understand the complications of many different aspects". Why would the voted representative have any better understanding. There are no qualifications for being a politician.

    Also, it'd probably be subject to hackers and the likes which would make it very hard to operate on such a platform.
    This is a real problem, but so is the pentagon, CIA, IRS, Major corporations. and it seems to work fairly well anyways. I'm not to worried about that aspect. but security must be high and there must be ways to know if its been breached.
    "Im right here, Deal with me!"

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