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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default What does the run away success of shades of grey say about womans lib?

    The trilogy shades of grey is a run away success, it is supposed to be selling fastest to a female readership and has been branded "yummy mummy porn" by british tabloids and even broadsheet press.

    It started out life as Twilight fan fiction but that element has been removed altogether, its original title "master of the universe" should be telling, it is a novel about a sadist who contracts a female, virgin, to be a submissive who will conscent to abdicate all personal choice and personal freedom.

    So, what does this say about women? Womans lib has been a lie?

  2. #2
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The trilogy shades of grey is a run away success, it is supposed to be selling fastest to a female readership and has been branded "yummy mummy porn" by british tabloids and even broadsheet press.

    It started out life as Twilight fan fiction but that element has been removed altogether, its original title "master of the universe" should be telling, it is a novel about a sadist who contracts a female, virgin, to be a submissive who will conscent to abdicate all personal choice and personal freedom.

    So, what does this say about women? Womans lib has been a lie?
    Why would a work of fiction mean anything other than the subjective projection of someone's world view?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Why would a work of fiction mean anything other than the subjective projection of someone's world view?
    Can you explain to me what you mean by subjective projection of someone's world view?

    The popularity of particular works of fiction would not reflect that their content resonates with others thoughts and feelings?

  4. #4
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Can you explain to me what you mean by subjective projection of someone's world view?

    The popularity of particular works of fiction would not reflect that their content resonates with others thoughts and feelings?
    Sure. I see where you're coming from. But then, I'd be urged to get into statistical analysis of differing and opposing POV's, or else it'd all seem like confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm personally biased against taking positions based on bias.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #5
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    It says nothing. People's sexual desires and fantasies can and do exist quite separately from their social personality.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It says nothing. People's sexual desires and fantasies can and do exist quite separately from their social personality.
    Really? Say more about that for a moment, you dont believe they are congruent like Freudian views of sexuality?

    I think that perhaps social personality has a greater impact on the formation of sexual desires and fantasies than it is generally given credit for, although a lot of things about social personality are unacknowledged or unconscious.

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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really? Say more about that for a moment, you dont believe they are congruent like Freudian views of sexuality?

    I think that perhaps social personality has a greater impact on the formation of sexual desires and fantasies than it is generally given credit for, although a lot of things about social personality are unacknowledged or unconscious.
    It's my tendency to think that they are relatively unrelated, given that we all create social personae, and this happens in part because many of our most intimate desires are socially unacceptable. At the same time, there is a component of one's social persona that relates to sexuality, particularly in how sex can affect social well-being. Satisfaction or deprivation of these desires do not necessarily constitute satisfaction or deprivation of core sexual desires, however, and it seems to me that conflation of the two can lead to all sorts of neurosis.

    Many women have enjoyed the books in spite of the general social taboo in regard to BDSM. To me, this suggests that the enjoyment comes from a place that lay relatively unencumbered by social demands or norms. It also suggests that the sexual and social impulse here (similar to any other "closeted" scenario) are at odds - the person wants to gratify the sexual self, while avoiding being thought less of it by others.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's my tendency to think that they are relatively unrelated, given that we all create social personae, and this happens in part because many of our most intimate desires are socially unacceptable. At the same time, there is a component of one's social persona that relates to sexuality, particularly in how sex can affect social well-being. Satisfaction or deprivation of these desires do not necessarily constitute satisfaction or deprivation of core sexual desires, however, and it seems to me that conflation of the two can lead to all sorts of neurosis.

    Many women have enjoyed the books in spite of the general social taboo in regard to BDSM. To me, this suggests that the enjoyment comes from a place that lay relatively unencumbered by social demands or norms. It also suggests that the sexual and social impulse here (similar to any other "closeted" scenario) are at odds - the person wants to gratify the sexual self, while avoiding being thought less of it by others.
    This sounds like a pretty classically Freudian prespective, I dont share that perspective.

    I would share Fromm or Jung's perspectives more to be honest, archetypes and social character are greater determinants of character, which includes sexual orientation and behaviour, including things like BDSM.

    If you believe that women enjoyed the BDSM because they are "closeted" are you suggesting that most women are submissive and it is social expectations (demands?) and norms which prevents them being their true, ie submissive, selves? Sorry but that's just my understanding of what you wrote, perhaps I'm not reading that correctly, if it is the case then it really does make feminism and womans lib a laughing stock.

  9. #9
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This sounds like a pretty classically Freudian prespective, I dont share that perspective.

    I would share Fromm or Jung's perspectives more to be honest, archetypes and social character are greater determinants of character, which includes sexual orientation and behaviour, including things like BDSM.

    If you believe that women enjoyed the BDSM because they are "closeted" are you suggesting that most women are submissive and it is social expectations (demands?) and norms which prevents them being their true, ie submissive, selves? Sorry but that's just my understanding of what you wrote, perhaps I'm not reading that correctly, if it is the case then it really does make feminism and womans lib a laughing stock.
    Eh, wasn't intended to be particularly Freudian, though that did seem like the playing field you presented.

    When I refer to their being "closeted," I mean that they do not incorporate their sexual preferences as part of their social persona. It's not that social expectations prevent the true expression of the self, so much as social entanglements making it so that open expression of sexual desires is perceived to be undesirable on the part of the person.

    Another way of putting it - a person may desire being sexually submissive. That person may also want social equality and agency. Absent any proof to the contrary, there is no reason that a person who expresses both desires does not truly feel as such. However, if others were to know of that person's desire for sexual submission, it may thwart the concurrent desire for social equality and agency, as they may think less of the person for it. As such, it may be better to omit the desire for sexual submission from the person's social persona, or compartmentalize it into certain contexts, than to be open in expression of it. The open expression of that sexual desire may bring relatively little in the way of fulfilling sexual goals, while having an extremely detrimental effect on social goals.

  10. #10
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Who is ot popular with? Women? If so, I imagine it'd be more of a drive to transcend real and perceived abuse by men. Of among perhaps more of a sadistic desire to dominate because of feelings of powerlessness. I don't know anything about the book aside from what you have written here. It could also just mean bdsm is becoming more popthemelol (transcendence in submission theme). Perhaps I just think about transcendence too much D:
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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