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  1. #51
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    although it does seem like subordination is not something women want to fight if this is any guide. They all want to submit to the man.
    I......just......wow.
    -end of thread-

  2. #52
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    This is kind of a pointless discussion to have, as the "evidence" of the book series' popularity can be adduced in any number of arguments that contradict one another. That is, it cannot hope to be anything more than fodder for rationalization on all sides.

    A feminist, for instance, could argue that the book's popularity is a sign of backsliding as a result of the increased conservatism of mainstream media. Or that it signals that we were never rid of patriarchy to begin with.

    On the other hand, anti-feminists (like Katie Roiphe, damn her to hell) might say - like you're suggesting @Lark - that the book's popularity is a sign that women raised in a feminist-normative world are ready to get back in the kitchen because it's the "natural" way and they're sick of acting out of character to appease the floating head of Gloria Steinem that pops into their minds whenever they're being all unfeministic and shit.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is kind of a pointless discussion to have, as the "evidence" of the book series' popularity can be adduced in any number of arguments that contradict one another. That is, it cannot hope to be anything more than fodder for rationalization on all sides.
    Yeah, that's why I didn't bother to post anything. The OP was begging the question, and it's more just a thread for people to reveal their own state of minds by how they answer.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What?

    First of all ..."women's lib"...is this 1952, sir?

    Secondly, what do a sub-section of women's sexual desires have to do with political equality?

    I hate, hate, hate when people insist that feminists can't be submissives or exhibitionists or sex workers or any of that. It makes me roll my eyes so hard, like "really, you don't get it do you."
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well this sounds totally disgusting to me, and I probably wouldn't waste my time reading this book, but even if women want to read about this in fantasy doesn't even mean they'd want it IRL. Some women also may read it out of mere curiosity, not any real sexual desire.

    I mean I loved loved loved the Flowers in the Attic series when I was a teen, but that doesn't mean I enjoy incest or fantasize about my family members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    D/s relationships aren't wrong, but just because someone wants to be SEXUALLY submissive, doesn't mean that they necessarily want (for example in the case of a woman) to be dominated by all men - in fact, they may find this idea with *men in general* absolutely horrifying and disgusting, and may be very assertive with men they don't love and aren't attracted to, but want to be privately submissive to their boyfriend or husband.

    Or a person can be a very prominent person in business or politics or any other place in the world, and still be a sub. In fact it's pretty common, in case you didn't know (I'm guessing you didn't, since you made this thread).
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You can't be serious. Why do you think ALL women are reading this just because it's popular? And again, I think it's pretty stupid for you to equate sexual fantasies with political and social equality.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Yes, I know, but it's nice of you to finally notice.

  6. #56
    Senior Member lauranna's Avatar
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    Sexuality and what a woman wants in the bedroom is entirely unrelated to women's liberation.

    @Marmie Dearest Agree with you on all points.

  7. #57
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Even if these books are very popular, they still aren't read by the majority of people or women. So it' says nothing about the political or social beliefs of the majority.

  8. #58
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Even if these books are very popular, they still aren't read by the majority of people or women. So it' says nothing about the political or social beliefs of the majority.
    And more importantly, reading a book (and even enjoying a book!) says nothing at all about your political or social beliefs. It might go the other way and influence your beliefs, though it also might not.
    -end of thread-

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is kind of a pointless discussion to have, as the "evidence" of the book series' popularity can be adduced in any number of arguments that contradict one another. That is, it cannot hope to be anything more than fodder for rationalization on all sides.

    A feminist, for instance, could argue that the book's popularity is a sign of backsliding as a result of the increased conservatism of mainstream media. Or that it signals that we were never rid of patriarchy to begin with.

    On the other hand, anti-feminists (like Katie Roiphe, damn her to hell) might say - like you're suggesting @Lark - that the book's popularity is a sign that women raised in a feminist-normative world are ready to get back in the kitchen because it's the "natural" way and they're sick of acting out of character to appease the floating head of Gloria Steinem that pops into their minds whenever they're being all unfeministic and shit.
    How pointed has a discussion got to be? A lot of the threads which are trending on the forum are sex or relationships (and I dont actually mean the topics or subforums, I mean just want I'm observing) so by comparison I think its alright. I'm really beginning to get tired with the extent to which vindictiveness is resulting in a pretty thinly veiled "I wish you'd just not post".

    Anyway, I had hoped for a discussion about whether books and other sources of culture, especially those which are hyped or wildly popular, either reflect trends or create them, maybe also with some asides about the authoritarian or marketing personality or social character because I'm interested in that kind of thing. It didnt happen. Its not the first thread to disappoint this way.

  10. #60
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Ime, it doesn't mean that women want to be subordinate in general to men. I think you might be making one glaring error in judgement here, which some men also make when they perceive a woman as a 'slut'. Yes, she's dressed provocatively. Yes, she wants sex. Yes, she's flirting. NO, she's not available to every man in the room. Just the one she picks out. She's advertizing to HIM. And him alone.

    Similarly, some women(and men), have the need to occasionally be relieved of the burden of responsibility they carry in life. Many of them are women in power positions who have to make decisions all day long, but some are just more naturally the supportive character in life as such. Being a submissive isn't about wanting to submit to men in general. It's about finding that one person who you can submit to, voluntarily, utterly and truly. Someone who is worthy of your trust and the gift you have to offer them. Not every male specimen on the planet or the male breed in general.

    It's a bond that forms because you can completely trust them to take care of you better than you yourself would. And you in turn, can give him what he needs more than anything in the world. It's about ultimate trust in the other. And utter care for one another. It's a kind of intimacy that can make your head spin, and that most people seem afraid to experience, perhaps because they feel they might lose themselves in the process. Fair enough. Perhaps that is true, but that doesn't make it any less tempting.

    Now many feel uncomfortable actually living this fantasy..but it's still tempting enough to feel that exhilarating rush of danger mixed with incredible feeling of safety when merged with another. Reality often doesn't allow for such an experience. But a fiction book? You enjoy your head spinning, imagine what it's like, almost experience it for yourself, without any of the dangers that reality brings with it. And further more, you can play with the idea of danger even more in fiction, enjoying the rush of adrenaline as the fear you feel for trusting someone you perhaps don't know that well but feel incredibly drawn to and taking a chance on him..and maybe paying the ultimate price in the end. Since it is fiction. And there won't be any real time consequences to pay. Consider it playing emotional daredevil.

    I'd say that's a pretty neat package.
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