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  1. #31
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Should be interesting to see where this goes.
    It gives me an unsettling feeling to know that someone could drug me, rape me, and force me to give them a significant portion of my income for many, many years.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #32
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It has happened.

    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...1_T0B1RSR.html

    In this case the male rape victim was not a prisoner, but legal precedent has been set. Female rapists can sue their victims for child support.
    The idea is pretty horrific, although not quite so dramatic as the headline sounds, when you consider the context. A 19 year old and a 15 year old is statutory rape in many areas, yes (not all), but that's clearly a very different situation from an adult woman in a position of authority having sexual contact with an incarcerated youth under her supervision.

    It's also misleading to talk about "rapists" without making it clear that it's a case of statutory rape. Sure, it's legally rape, but it's also not what people typically think of when they hear the word. I realize you're trying to make that emotional connection for your audience, but I think it's important to provide context in these cases. More context: the child support ordered by the judge (not sued for by the woman, as far as I saw) was $50/month. Still a pretty strange order for a 17-year old victim of statutory rape, but not as dramatic as you make it sound, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Are you saying statutory rape is not "rape"? I'm curious as to why you don't think this is "rape".
    "the study doesn't distinguish between penetrative and non-penetrative sex..."rape" in the sense you seem to be using it" - i.e. it's unclear what proportion of the incidents have any possibility of pregnancy, which you were associating with rape. Nothing to do with statutory or not, or whether I think it's rape.
    -end of thread-

  3. #33
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    The idea is pretty horrific, although not quite so dramatic as the headline sounds, when you consider the context. A 19 year old and a 15 year old is statutory rape in many areas, yes (not all), but that's clearly a very different situation from an adult woman in a position of authority having sexual contact with an incarcerated youth under her supervision.
    What if the woman is 34, rather than 19?

    http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=2641

    It's also misleading to talk about "rapists" when it's a case of statutory rape. Sure, it's legally rape, but it's also not what people typically think of when they hear the word. I realize you're trying to make that emotional connection for your audience, but I think it's important to provide context in these cases.
    Are you trying to argue that it's more acceptable to rape someone by manipulating them than it is to use violence? It's "not as bad" if a woman is taking advantage of a young boy's raging hormones that he doesn't understand?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #34
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What if the woman is 34, rather than 19?

    http://glennsacks.com/blog/?p=2641
    I see that as worse, yes. A 19 year old is still basically a child.

    Are you trying to argue that it's more acceptable to rape someone by manipulating them than it is to use violence? It's "not as bad" if a woman is taking advantage of a young boy's raging hormones?
    No, no I am not. What I am arguing is that they are very different scenarios and that information is highly relevant for understanding the situation. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to twist my words.
    -end of thread-

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I see that as worse, yes. A 19 year old is still basically a child.


    No, no I am not. What I am arguing is that they are very different scenarios and that information is highly relevant for understanding the situation. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to twist my words.
    I'm not trying to twist your words, I just don't understand why you feel the need to point out that the scenarios are different. I don't find the difference you're trying to point out to be relevant. It seems to me that you see there being some sort of spectrum of culpability, that's what I'm trying to get at.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As we all know, men are significantly more violent than women and pretty much all rape is perpetrated by men. That said, I am troubled by a USDOJ report that was published in 2010.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

    In the highlights section, it mentions the following:



    Are all of these juveniles lying because they're misogynists? Are men threatening the juveniles? Are men forcing female staff to "abuse" the juveniles against their will, while they get off watching? Surely something else must be going on because we know for a fact that least 95% of all pedophiles and rapists are male.
    I dont believe this is that controversial, in the UK most of the scandals involving the killing of patients by nurses, I'm thinking in particular of one case involving babies but I believe that there have been others involving the mistreatment and even deaths of diabetic patients, although no one has been apprehended for that one.

    In those cases the evidence suggested that female sado-masochists were functioning as the archetypical "controlling carer", escalated to harm and finally killing, it would not surprise me if the same pattern was presenting itself here in the instance you mention.

    Those professions could be attracting some women with similar personality profiles, or they could be women driven by conscious or unconscious conflicts or needs to join those professions, I've known some female social workers who wouldnt ever (I hope) be in the category of an offender but who do seem to desire the devotion of the people they work with and if this is not reciprocated react with pretty obvious dejection.

    People with those profiles who are in situations with vulnerable young people, some of which may have traumatic histories (I'll bet they do) or histories of sexual abuse or submitting to dominating others (its very likely), who could begin to suffer vacarious trauma, stress, which at times could be akin to war or siege stress and even crisis.

    I dont believe that men are the source of predatory behaviour or exclusively predatory, were you implying that? I do think that a social character emerges in every society and becomes normative, in the US perhaps even more than UK or EU, I think that social character involves traits of authoritarianism, its been well analysed by authors before now and I do think that in certain contexts it does play out as predatory behaviour.

  7. #37
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You must live in a cave.

    [YOUTUBE="muuFygvXPAM"]It's quite fabulous[/YOUTUBE]
    Jesus they're fucked in the head. Glad they acknowledged it was screwed at least.

    I think the presumption when a man is attacked is often "what did he do to deserve or provoke it" whereas women are automatically accepted as a victim.

  8. #38
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    @Lateralus, you seem to really have an axe to grind with "the feminazis" these days. Some people may not have read the dripping sarcasm in your OP but I did. What gives? AKA What exactly is your point because it certainly wasn't about this specific report, guard, and sexual misconduct.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    @Lateralus, you seem to really have an axe to grind with "the feminazis" these days. Some people may not have read the dripping sarcasm in your OP but I did. What gives? AKA What exactly is your point because it certainly wasn't about this specific report, guard, and sexual misconduct.
    My problem is that our society doesn't consider problems that predominately affect males to be very important. Males are more than twice as likely to be homeless than females. Males commit suicide at a rate at least 3 times greater than females. We don't give veterans, who are predominately male, the medical care they deserve. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men who have been unfairly branded as "deadbeats" by our nation's overzealous paternity system. We're constantly reminded of the gender wage gap, but the fact that men are more than 11 times more likely than women to die at the work isn't a pressing concern. The list goes on.

    On top of that, regardless of what some of the "enlightened" people on this forum may believe, public perception in the US is that men are significantly more likely than women to be violent in domestic relationships. People do actually believe that men commit 95% of rapes, I know some of them personally, and these aren't people who label themselves as "feminists". These are people who have picked these views up through cultural osmosis. The fact that rape has been defined in such a way that it was literally impossible for a male to even be "raped" until very recently has made crime statistics worthless. Forced envelopment is still not considered rape. And when that is brought up, you're told "well, it's not the same thing". The overall message here is that when men are raped by women, it's not really important; males are either lying or they secretly wanted it. If you were to say these things about female rape victims, you would be instantly branded a misogynist and chastised for "blaming the victim", but throwing these accusations at male victims, while not explicitly accepted, is more acceptable.

    I have not personally been a victim of any of these things (I don't personally identify with the male victims I have mentioned), but the double standard does make me angry at times because I have an overdeveloped sense of justice. I get just as angry about issues like political corruption, campaign finance, and the fact that evangelical Christians hate science. The way I see it is that too few people like me don't speak up about this. So I have decided to change my behavior, to make some noise, and if it makes people uncomfortable I don't give a shit. If some people engage in critical thinking as a result, I'll be happy.

    P.S. I know there are plenty of issues that affect predominately women, but the difference is that there is an army of activists rushing to defend women any time one of these issues is discovered. They don't need my help.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    My problem is that our society doesn't consider problems that predominately affect males to be very important.
    Really, society doesn't consider homelessness, suicide, worker's safety or veteran's affairs to be important problems? I'd disagree strongly with that (although to be fair, the situation may be different here in Canada).

    Males are more than twice as likely to be homeless than females.
    Women are far more likely to be prostitutes.
    Males commit suicide at a rate at least 3 times greater than females.
    Women attempt suicide far more often than men, even though they succeed less frequently.
    We don't give veterans, who are predominately male, the medical care they deserve.
    We don't give teachers and nurses, who are predominantly female, the salary they "deserve".
    There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men who have been unfairly branded as "deadbeats" by our nation's overzealous paternity system.
    There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of women who have been unfairly branded as "welfare moms" by your nation's inability to help those who fall through the cracks.
    We're constantly reminded of the gender wage gap, but the fact that men are more than 11 times more likely than women to die at the work isn't a pressing concern. The list goes on.
    And just as you'd bring up the fact that it's not relevant to compare teacher's salaries to CEO's salaries and call that a "gender gap in wages" (and I'd agree!), it's not relevant to compare construction workers to secretaries and call that a "gender gap in deaths". If there's a difference in deaths of people working the same job title, that would be something to investigate. It's not exactly a surprise that men are more likely to work physical jobs and physical jobs are more likely to cause death. Worker's deaths are absolutely a "pressing concern", but not because not enough women are dying at work. Anyone who's worked a physical job will tell you about the yards of safety training, failsafes etc to try to prevent deaths. It still happens, but it's not taken lightly at ALL. It's completely ridiculous to argue that this is a sign of society devaluing men.

    In other words, there are gender differences in various Bad Things, but they don't imply any sort of conspiracy by society to devalue men.

    I often feel like you're arguing against the strawman that "men have it so easy, everything is handed to them on a silver platter, etc", which I haven't seen anyone actually saying. Sometimes things can be bad (like workers dying) without those things being a sign that "our society doesn't care about men".
    -end of thread-

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