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  1. #71
    WALMART
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    What? What do you mean how did a thread on the pirate party turn to pirating?

    Gahhhh people want me to rip my brains out!!!



    Of course no one wants their emails read. If we stuck to that, the thread would suck. So i decided to voice my opinion on the most absurd part of the party, their support of piracy.

  2. #72

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    The phrase "Data is not stolen when it is copied" is not an endorsement of piracy.

    Do you have any clue how many times data is copied when it travels over networks or even inside your very own computer during normal functioning?

    Passing laws that make this sort of copying illegal will pretty much give free reign to the government to interpret an enforce piracy laws on whomever they deem fit.

    Stupid law suits, like the one Oracle tried/is trying on Google will be come more common place.

    Multi-million dollar companies will legally strong-arm teenagers and their grandparents

    ...and the government can use checking for "piracy" as an excuse to remove any semblance of civil liberties.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #73
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The phrase "Data is not stolen when it is copied" is not an endorsement of piracy.

    Do you have any clue how many times data is copied when it travels over networks or even inside your very own computer during normal functioning?

    Passing laws that make this sort of copying illegal will pretty much give free reign to the government to interpret an enforce piracy laws on whomever they deem fit.

    Stupid law suits, like the one Oracle tried/is trying on Google will be come more common place.

    Multi-million dollar companies will legally strong-arm teenagers and their grandparents

    ...and the government can use checking for "piracy" as an excuse to remove any semblance of civil liberties.
    Nice and concise format. A lot better than what I could of ever said/explained.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    What is the Ninja party offering?

  5. #75
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    Strong arm them by saying we have absolutely no trace of your digital footprint?


    I really don't understand. It's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't understand how you two think you understand what this group is out to do. This group is out to make the internet an unregulated wasteland where anything placed upon its network is free game for any type of action.

    Okay, almost any type of action. They won't cut/paste your research essay to their hard drive


    I really don't know why I'm still going.

  6. #76
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    As an engineer I create intellectual property. Market forces determine my compensation. Sure, it would be nice if the government spent other people's money to force consumers to pay me a royalty, but would it be fair to everyone else?

    What public good is served by enforcing an obsolete marketing model on behalf of the current beneficiaries?

  7. #77
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    As an engineer I create intellectual property. Market forces determine my compensation. Sure, it would be nice if the government spent other people's money to force consumers to pay me a royalty, but would it be fair to everyone else?

    What public good is served by enforcing an obsolete marketing model on behalf of the current beneficiaries?
    I think jontherobot is one of those people who believes that the internet will ruin many industries, like the movie and television industries, it if is "unregulated". His position really isn't new. Entrenched industries ALWAYS lobby against change, and there will always be people who are foolish enough to believe their doomsday prophecies. But that's the nature of markets, a new equilibrium will be established and people cannot always foresee what the new equilibrium will be (and that scares them).

    Here are some examples of industries complaining about new technology:
    1. Painters complained about photography in the 1800s, claiming that art would "wither and die".
    2. John Philip Sousa wrote an article titled "The Menace of Mechanical Music" in the early 20th century after the invention of the player piano and the gramophone, where he said "a condition is almost sure to arise where all incentive to further creative work is lacking, and compositions will no longer flow from their pens" (along with some other ridiculous arguments).
    3. In the 1920s the radio industry was supposedly going to put the gramophone industry out of business and composers would no longer compose because it was "free".
    4. In the 1960s, broadcast television claimed that cable television was going to eliminate the incentive to create any new shows (apparently free can't compete with paid). This actually made it to the Supreme Court.
    5. In the 1970s, the book industry claimed the photocopier was going to put them out of business. This also made it to the Supreme Court.
    6. Then came the VCR.
    7. DVRs were supposed to be the end of television because they allowed consumers to skip commercials, but DVRs actually caused an increase in interest (and revenue) in television shows.
    8. Now it's the internet.

    There is a persistent theme here. With each new technological advance content creators cry like the world is going to end (and spend hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying) because they don't see how the can make money under the new system. And with each new technological advance, they actually make MORE FUCKING MONEY! We may not be able to predict exactly what things will look like 10 or 20 years from now, but I can make this guarantee: Content creators will make more fucking money, despite all their caterwauling. That's why I say "fuck you" to Chris Dodd and anyone else who takes the side of the content creators on the piracy issue.
    Last edited by Lateralus; 06-25-2012 at 06:13 AM. Reason: typo
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #78
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Okay, so now you pay for something only granted temporarily when you used to be able to keep it? I don't understand how providing a service is better than a product when it comes to media.


    Examples:

    Zune Marketplace - Service - $15 a month, music is not legally yours, right to listen expires upon non-payment

    Apple iTunes - Product - $.99 per song, music is legally yours


    - Another analogy -


    World of Warcraft - Service - $15 per month, content is not legally yours, right to play expires upon non-payment, modification not allowed (we can talk about private servers if you want, kind of complicates my point)

    Warcraft 3 - Product - $60 (original retail), content is legally yours, modification is allowed



    Piracy ruined media, I understand what you're saying. Piracy is so easy, everyone's going to do it, there's no stopping it, change your business model, yadda yadda. I get it. I've gotten it.

    That doesn't mean I won't think people who pirate are thieving motherfuckers that do nothing but feel they are entitled to things they shouldn't be just because they can. And I DAMN sure wouldn't give legal amnesty to those who disrespectfully steal property of others.
    Piracy hasn't ruined anything. You've been brainwashed. Rather than write out a long post of my own, I'll quote some other random guy's internet post (probably violating some law out there).

    How long should it take to work out a sustainable business model? Remember the DAT wars? CD burners? The warning signs were there years before Napster. Even in an alternate reality in which the Internet didn’t exist, nothing would stop widespread piracy of music once it entered the digital domain with lossless duplication, and storage became plentiful and cheap. If there were no Internet, people would just get together at regular swap meets and bring their portable 2TB hard drives, trading 5,000 tracks at a time instead of 5.

    This is the industry that made the mistake of giving away music videos for free — and once that horse was out of the barn, it would never go back in. The Internet is a scapegoat. Yes, it made piracy more frictionless largely because of Napster, broadband connections and the innovation of P2P technology. But the best thing of all about Napster was the instant gratification, getting virtually any recording known to mankind almost instantly on demand. For free, yes, but Apple proved most people really don’t sweat the 99 cents a track. The real failure of the music industry is that you STILL can’t get everything on one platform. Up until a year or two ago (?) you couldn’t even get the freakin’ Beatles on iTunes. It took the arm-twisting of Apple to finally get rid of DRM that made the product MORE inconvenient for PAYING customers. The fundamental idiocy of that is self-evident.

    Also, how quickly we forget that the Internet enabled individualized music discovery and promotion on a scale never before available. An unsigned band that would have had to toil through blood, sweat and tears of nationwide touring for years to build a following of a few thousand fans could amass ten times that many in a few weeks on MySpace. A little creativity could have driven monetization in a whole host of other ways if the labels and publishers actually gave a damn instead of pursuing litigation as a business model. My favorite example of all has to be publishers suing lyrics sites. Hands up all who ever paid a dime to buy LYRICS to a song? Talk about a pyrrhic victory — alienating fans who might spend good money to buy sound recordings or sheet music (with actual notes and chord charts!) or concert tickets or band merch to avoid the loss of imaginary revenue. Unbelievable.

    I worked at MySpace from 2004-06. By the time I left, over a million bands had MySpace profiles; we passed 100 million registered users, were getting a couple billion page views per day, and surpassed Yahoo! shortly thereafter to become the second-most-trafficked site on the entire Internet. (Oh how the mighty have fallen, but that’s another story.) What was drawing a quarter million new registered users per day? Socializing of all kinds, to be sure, but for the core 15-30 demographic, it was shared enthusiasm for, and discovery of, music acts in a way that had never been possible before. By clinging to a defunct business model that relied entirely on a couple unsustainable revenue streams, and threatening its fans instead of courting them, the recording industry blew the once-in-a-generation opportunity to shape the media consumption habits of young people in ways that could have been profitable for labels and artists alike. (I guess twice-in-a-generation if you include that music video thing.)
    I don't waste any of my time being angry at people who have little or no power to change the system, that includes both welfare mothers and people pirating music. I reserve my anger for those who have influence, those who are actually crashing the economy and spending hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #79

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    Hello!

    My name is Orion Steele, I am one of the founding members of the California Pirate Party and I have been following this thread with great interest. I hope to join the conversation because the main philosophy of the California Pirate Party is to encourage debate and honestly think hard about all different sides of an issue.

    In that spirit, I want to start by saying that I appreciate the serious discussion about intellectual property taking place here. I understand the criticisms that many people in this thread are expressing and I am generating a debate about the issues you've discussed within the California Pirate Party. That said, there are a few other things:

    1. California Pirate Party is not a single issue party - We do not believe that single issue political movements are successful. While they may be able to shift the nature of the conversation, they cannot obtain a foothold for substantial political influence. As such, those of us that run the California Pirate Party refuse to be involved unless we can expand our platform to advocate on behalf of our local communities.

    In other words, the California Pirate Party shares a passion for protecting digital rights and advocating for IP/copyright reform (just like other pirate parties around the world), but we also advocate for civil rights, access to education, policy solutions to economic inequality, ecology/ocean health, immigration reform, healthcare reform, election reform and secularism. We oppose police brutality, surveillance, corporate control of information, the war on drugs and enormous military expenditures. We have policy positions on a range of issues and we are willing to debate anyone on any topic of their choosing.

    2. The core of the California Pirate Party is direct democracy - Most of the people who run the CAPP are debaters, lawyers, activists and young professionals with a passion for democratic deliberation. We believe in the power of debate, and we like it when people disagree with us because it is an opportunity to sharpen our perspective and learn about how to incorporate different interests into our platform. Our main goal is to promote public intellectualism and create a space where artists and content producers can engage in a vibrant debate. We believe these conversations will give rise to a new model of intellectual property that is more fair to consumers and also provides more compensation to content producers than they receive in the status quo.

    3. We are not anarchists or communists - We are not revolutionaries. We fundamentally believe that the components of American democracy are great, it's just that many constitutional principles have been undermined by recent laws and jurisprudence. We oppose state power, but we do not want the government to go away. Additionally, we are not communists or capitalists. We consider ourselves to be post-capitalists. The contours of that ideology would be an entire different thread post. One component of this ideology is that resistance to capitalism is built into the capitalist system itself.

    Similarly, we do not advocate for intellectual property to be a "barren landscape". Rather, we advocate for real policy changes that promote the free flow of information and protect digital rights. Knowledge should be accessible to all people. We believe there are ways to compensate artists and content producers for their talent at the same time. We also think that corporate control of knowledge goes beyond programming and video game development. The IP system grants draconian pharmaceutical patents that make it hard for poor people to get medicine and strong biotech patents that allow companies like Monsanto to steal indigenous growing techniques and destroy local cultures. These are all part of our push for intellectual property reform. These are the reasons why we chose to emphasize the phrase "data is not stolen when it is copied"...it wasn't a typo.

    4. The status quo isn't any better - There are some awesome arguments in this thread and smart interpretations of the market value of information. I am persuaded by the argument that the status quo does not fairly compensate content producers for their work, and that our policies are currently on track to severely regulate, limit, survey and control information. The web has opened pandora's box, and as the digital generation we need to be very careful about how we proceed with our laws.

    I just wanted to jump in and make a few of these points. I am keeping track of the conversation and will respond to you. There is more for me to say in response to some of the ideas here about what the pirate party stands for. There is also a ton of information at our website, www.calpirateparty.org

    OH, and I will also say that we really like using pirate costumes, symbolism, and imagery to get people hooked into our message. You can read a blog post I wrote defending the name "Pirate party" here:
    http://www.calpirateparty.org/1/post...-the-name.html

    and, today we are doing our second reddit post on r/politics...if you are interested in our progress as an actually registered political party, you can check it out there (probably in the "new" tab of r/politics).

    I'm intrigued to continue talking to you.

  10. #80
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterVenkman View Post
    Hello!

    My name is Orion Steele, I am one of the founding members of the California Pirate Party and I have been following this thread with great interest. I hope to join the conversation because the main philosophy of the California Pirate Party is to encourage debate and honestly think hard about all different sides of an issue.

    In that spirit, I want to start by saying that I appreciate the serious discussion about intellectual property taking place here. I understand the criticisms that many people in this thread are expressing and I am generating a debate about the issues you've discussed within the California Pirate Party. That said, there are a few other things:

    1. California Pirate Party is not a single issue party - We do not believe that single issue political movements are successful. While they may be able to shift the nature of the conversation, they cannot obtain a foothold for substantial political influence. As such, those of us that run the California Pirate Party refuse to be involved unless we can expand our platform to advocate on behalf of our local communities.

    In other words, the California Pirate Party shares a passion for protecting digital rights and advocating for IP/copyright reform (just like other pirate parties around the world), but we also advocate for civil rights, access to education, policy solutions to economic inequality, ecology/ocean health, immigration reform, healthcare reform, election reform and secularism. We oppose police brutality, surveillance, corporate control of information, the war on drugs and enormous military expenditures. We have policy positions on a range of issues and we are willing to debate anyone on any topic of their choosing.

    2. The core of the California Pirate Party is direct democracy - Most of the people who run the CAPP are debaters, lawyers, activists and young professionals with a passion for democratic deliberation. We believe in the power of debate, and we like it when people disagree with us because it is an opportunity to sharpen our perspective and learn about how to incorporate different interests into our platform. Our main goal is to promote public intellectualism and create a space where artists and content producers can engage in a vibrant debate. We believe these conversations will give rise to a new model of intellectual property that is more fair to consumers and also provides more compensation to content producers than they receive in the status quo.

    3. We are not anarchists or communists - We are not revolutionaries. We fundamentally believe that the components of American democracy are great, it's just that many constitutional principles have been undermined by recent laws and jurisprudence. We oppose state power, but we do not want the government to go away. Additionally, we are not communists or capitalists. We consider ourselves to be post-capitalists. The contours of that ideology would be an entire different thread post. One component of this ideology is that resistance to capitalism is built into the capitalist system itself.

    Similarly, we do not advocate for intellectual property to be a "barren landscape". Rather, we advocate for real policy changes that promote the free flow of information and protect digital rights. Knowledge should be accessible to all people. We believe there are ways to compensate artists and content producers for their talent at the same time. We also think that corporate control of knowledge goes beyond programming and video game development. The IP system grants draconian pharmaceutical patents that make it hard for poor people to get medicine and strong biotech patents that allow companies like Monsanto to steal indigenous growing techniques and destroy local cultures. These are all part of our push for intellectual property reform. These are the reasons why we chose to emphasize the phrase "data is not stolen when it is copied"...it wasn't a typo.

    4. The status quo isn't any better - There are some awesome arguments in this thread and smart interpretations of the market value of information. I am persuaded by the argument that the status quo does not fairly compensate content producers for their work, and that our policies are currently on track to severely regulate, limit, survey and control information. The web has opened pandora's box, and as the digital generation we need to be very careful about how we proceed with our laws.

    I just wanted to jump in and make a few of these points. I am keeping track of the conversation and will respond to you. There is more for me to say in response to some of the ideas here about what the pirate party stands for. There is also a ton of information at our website, www.calpirateparty.org

    OH, and I will also say that we really like using pirate costumes, symbolism, and imagery to get people hooked into our message. You can read a blog post I wrote defending the name "Pirate party" here:
    http://www.calpirateparty.org/1/post...-the-name.html

    and, today we are doing our second reddit post on r/politics...if you are interested in our progress as an actually registered political party, you can check it out there (probably in the "new" tab of r/politics).

    I'm intrigued to continue talking to you.
    ^^This guy's username alone has me sold.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

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