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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I give exactly no fucks about mopping.
    Am I allowed to circumvent the rule against profanity in signatures? Because this is the best phrase I've read in weeks here.

  2. #82
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Agreed.

    There's also something else I don't understand. If, as the author quite accurately points out, the active/passive schema is something that is an arbitrary cultural hangover that keeps getting reproduced, then why does she also seem to suggest that it's primarily the fault of some nebulous idea of "feminism?" This just makes me think that she is very much unfamiliar with feminist scholarship, which has from the very beginning been loudly pointing out the damaging effects of binaries such as the one identified by the author of this article (and not just the effects on women.) I think that may well be one of the things that most feminists agree upon, actually.
    EXACTLY. This is what I meant with my first posts in this thread.

  3. #83
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It should be mutual consent or one person should have to show fault. As for the consequences, it would force those who are already married to put more effort toward salvaging the relationship before they break it off. It would also force people considering marriage to take it more seriously. Right now, the only difference between marriage and dating is that the woman can legally take a bunch of the man's wealth when it's over (whether it's needed or not). FYI, no-fault marriage has been the law of the land in every US state since 1985 (California was the first state to implement it, in 1970).
    Abuse isn't always in the form of a black eye. If a man is verbally abused by his wife but has no proof, he should be forced to stay in the marriage until he can catch it on tape (which is illegal, I think?)? If one or both people feel nothing, they should be forced to stay in a loveless marriage if one spouse doesn't want to go through the hassle of moving out and wants a roommate? If one person refuses to have sex but wants to stay in the marriage, is it better for the other partner to leave, have an affair, or live the rest of their life celibate? Unless you're being very liberal with the idea of "fault" here (I confess I don't know the legal definition), I see a lot of potential for unhappiness, and that can impact children in a dramatic way, affecting both their personality and their future relationships/children.

    I don't think I'd be opposed to mandatory counselling before divorce, actually, in theory at least. Of course logistics like money etc would be an issue, and again it would be harmful in the cases of abuse or neglect.

    Do you think it's better for children to be raised in a family with no affection (or worse) between the parents, to be raised by a single parent, or to be raised by a couple who lives together but isn't married?

    Women are heavily favored in divorce settlements, both in financial and custody terms. Men are often "guilty until proven innocent" in divorce court.
    The implication being that women seek divorce more often because they are more likely to profit? It could be a factor. Are women more likely to leave rich husbands than poor husbands? Logically they should be, if profit is the main reason for seeking divorce.

    I do agree with you that fear of losing custody or money is likely to prevent/delay some men (more than women) from seeking divorce, although certainly this is not exclusive to men. Do you think this fear is a good thing and should exist for both genders, or would it be better if neither side lost financially (although I can't imagine this scenario ever happening, since even if no assets are transferred life gets far more expensive living in 2 houses than in 1) and custody was always equally shared?
    -end of thread-

  4. #84
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    EXACTLY. This is what I meant with my first posts in this thread.
    It's quite arrogant, though, isn't it? To (1) presume that you're the first person to talk about gender binaries and to (2) badly re-map the concept onto your own arguments, which are an attempt to discredit (wholesale) the one field that did originally point them out in a critical way? I guess it should be no mystery why people feel they are "better" than feminism, in general, and thus have the gall to presume they can "take it on," as it were, and re-explain things to poor dumb feminists. Usually using feminist vocabulary, too, but I suppose we can't expect such fools to be aware of the irony.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #85
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  6. #86
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Circle View Post
    I think focusing on the male / female dynamic of marriage / divorce misses the larger cultural issue of community fragmentation / personal isolation that has arisen due to tenuous community bonds. We are organisms that evolved in a small extended-family bands living in an impersonal, socially-disconnected context that is foreign to our evolutionary context.
    Perhaps we need to give propranolol to the SJs/TJs : D
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #87
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well we aren't in Russia, or in pre history now are we.
    No, but it is an instinctual response that is understandable and that one can sympathize with. Men have similar "social boundaries" that the discerning woman will respect as well. That's the thing, finding a person that you can compromise with that will leave you both feeling good about yourselves.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Abuse isn't always in the form of a black eye. If a man is verbally abused by his wife but has no proof, he should be forced to stay in the marriage until he can catch it on tape (which is illegal, I think?)? If one or both people feel nothing, they should be forced to stay in a loveless marriage if one spouse doesn't want to go through the hassle of moving out and wants a roommate? If one person refuses to have sex but wants to stay in the marriage, is it better for the other partner to leave, have an affair, or live the rest of their life celibate? Unless you're being very liberal with the idea of "fault" here (I confess I don't know the legal definition), I see a lot of potential for unhappiness, and that can impact children in a dramatic way, affecting both their personality and their future relationships/children.
    If a man is verbally abused by his wife, he likely wouldn't file for divorce simply out of shame.

    1. The idea that marriages are solely about love is a 20th century concept that has all but ruined marriage. When people analyze marriage, they need to be less concerned about an individual's feelings and more concerned about evolution (cultural evolution and how it relates to marriage).
    2. Yes, they should stay together. Don't the vows state "until death do us part"? Or were they changed to "until I'm tired of you" somewhere along the line? Perhaps you're fine with people not living up to their commitments. I am not, especially when children are involved.
    3. Split households are more dependent on government assistance. The children in those households perform worse in school and are more likely to have a host of different behavioral issues (sexual promiscuity, violence, etc).
    4. Suck it up.

    I don't think I'd be opposed to mandatory counselling before divorce, actually, in theory at least. Of course logistics like money etc would be an issue, and again it would be harmful in the cases of abuse or neglect.

    Do you think it's better for children to be raised in a family with no affection (or worse) between the parents, to be raised by a single parent, or to be raised by a couple who lives together but isn't married?
    I don't know about the couple that isn't married. I have never seen any studies on whether that has an impact on child development compared to a typical married nuclear family. The single-parent obviously comes in last.

    The implication being that women seek divorce more often because they are more likely to profit? It could be a factor. Are women more likely to leave rich husbands than poor husbands? Logically they should be, if profit is the main reason for seeking divorce.

    I do agree with you that fear of losing custody or money is likely to prevent/delay some men (more than women) from seeking divorce, although certainly this is not exclusive to men. Do you think this fear is a good thing and should exist for both genders, or would it be better if neither side lost financially (although I can't imagine this scenario ever happening, since even if no assets are transferred life gets far more expensive living in 2 houses than in 1) and custody was always equally shared?
    I don't think anyone, people with anti-social personality disorders aside, consciously does it for the money. It's not that women are explicitly "greedy", it's that the process is simply far, far easier for them. They usually get most of what they want, including the humiliation of their former spouse.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #89
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: sorry I didn't reply to your "freedom without responsibility", but it was so very vague that I still have absolutely no idea what specific issue you're referring to. In the context of the thread....uhhh, still not sure.
    Women have 100% control over their reproductive ability thanks to technological advances, but don't take 100% responsibility when an unwanted child is born.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #90
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If a man is verbally abused by his wife, he likely wouldn't file for divorce simply out of shame.

    1. The idea that marriages are solely about love is a 20th century concept that has all but ruined marriage. When people analyze marriage, they need to be less concerned about an individual's feelings and more concerned about evolution (cultural evolution and how it relates to marriage).
    Why does the nebulous idea of "cultural evolution" matter more than an individual's happiness? Are the two entirely separate, or will mass unhappiness affect cultural evolution?
    2. Yes, they should stay together. Don't the vows state "until death do us part"? Or were they changed to "until I'm tired of you" somewhere along the line? Perhaps you're fine with people not living up to their commitments. I am not, especially when children are involved.
    So it's a matter of agreeing to something for a lifetime and then wanting to back out. Not every vow includes those words, although it's true that most do. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable including that in my own vows someday. The idea of agreeing to something for that long seems fundamentally clashing with human nature and incompatible with happiness for many, many people. I agree that it sets a bad example to back out of commitments, but I think a greater issue is that we're making these ridiculous lifelong promises when we're barely adults and then being surprised when our middle-aged self is unhappy with the situation. I think it would be better to get rid of marriage altogether than to force people into staying in unhappy situations for years and denying any chance at future happiness. Humans are just not equipped to predict what a future that distant will look like, although it's all very romantic to say that you'll stay with someone forever and ever regardless of any changes in situation, personality, etc.
    3. Split households are more dependent on government assistance. The children in those households perform worse in school and are more likely to have a host of different behavioral issues (sexual promiscuity, violence, etc).
    Correlations, of course. Lower income families are more likely to split up in the first place (or never marry) and also more likely to depend on gov't assistance. Also, children from split homes are more likely than children in together homes to have experienced a negative relationship between their parents before the split - exactly because no-fault divorce is possible, and people are more likely to leave unhappy marriages! if more people were forced to stay in unhappy marriages, it's hard to predict how children would be impacted. I think it's far too simplistic to take the fact "parents together correlates with children better off" and ignore all the other factors that correlate with parents being together, and I don't think it's reasonable to say that a marriage forced to stay together would have equivalent positive benefits to a marriage which stays together because everyone is happy with the arrangement.
    4. Suck it up.
    Why? What are all the marvelous things that would happen to society that make it worth it for many members of that society to be unhappy for their entire life?

    I don't think anyone, people with anti-social personality disorders aside, consciously does it for the money. It's not that women are explicitly "greedy", it's that the process is simply far, far easier for them. They usually get most of what they want, including the humiliation of their former spouse.
    The women I know who've divorced would disagree very, very strongly with this statement. In my experience it's nearly always a lose-lose scenario, although it's often a better one than the lose-lose of the existing marriage.
    -end of thread-

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