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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The title was the author's, not mine and I'm not "arguing" anything.
    Ah, OK. I guess I got the title a bit wrong too.

    But it does seem like the author is trying to spin a story ("manufacturing victimhood") that she doesn't completely make a case for.

    She does make a fairly good case that the statistics are being distorted...or at least that the categories and metrics need to be re-examined.

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  2. #22
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    The part of this issue I'm most interested in is the greater level of salience female perspectives have in the culture generally.

    For instance, when did the assumption that a woman's always right in an argument come from.

    How has that become a culturally accepted trope?

  3. #23
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm not even sure the statistics are being purposefully distorted. I think this idea is still so deeply ingrained (women passive, men active) that even sociological research still reflects it.

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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The part of this issue I'm most interested in is the greater level of salience female perspectives have in the culture generally.

    For instance, when did the assumption that a woman's always right in an argument come from.

    How has that become a culturally accepted trope?
    That has not been my experience. Where are you finding this to be common knowledge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That has not been my experience. Where are you finding this to be common knowledge?
    On TV.

    Generally the media.

    But also interpersonally. I've encountered plenty of women who are taken aback when I argue with them, and don't just let them win b/c they're women.

    Hell... I love my mom to death, but I still have to let her win.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    On TV.

    Generally the media.

    But also interpersonally. I've encountered plenty of women who are taken aback when I argue with them, and don't just let them win b/c they're women.
    I've seen this happen in the media, but I've never experienced this in person. I can imagine this happening when interacting with women I don't know well, but not with any who know me well.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    On TV.

    Generally the media.

    But also interpersonally. I've encountered plenty of women who are taken aback when I argue with them, and don't just let them win b/c they're women.
    The TV/media thing, I started a thread about that on INTPc a few years back. It's an interesting sociological phenomenon, but TV/media isn't reality. It's interesting to look at how they're marketing stuff to women with the implication that they're REALLY in charge.

    I can't really account for your personal experience, as it's not something I've seen in my own experience. If anything, I've had experiences with men who are dismissive when *I* argue with *them* instead of just bowing to their clearly superior wisdom. We used to hang out with this couple- a scientist husband and a homemaker wife. Noah and I talk about science all the time together, so when we got together I expected to be where they were, talking about science and shit. But this dude practically shooed me and his wife into the kitchen to talk about woman things instead of having a real conversation between the four of us. He would take Noah into his "study" and close the door, with the clear implication that we would be interrupting if we went in and tried to join their conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The TV/media thing, I started a thread about that on INTPc a few years back. It's an interesting sociological phenomenon, but TV/media isn't reality. It's interesting to look at how they're marketing stuff to women with the implication that they're REALLY in charge.

    I can't really account for your personal experience, as it's not something I've seen in my own experience. If anything, I've had experiences with men who are dismissive when *I* argue with *them* instead of just bowing to their clearly superior wisdom. We used to hang out with this couple- a scientist husband and a homemaker wife. Noah and I talk about science all the time together, so when we got together I expected to be where they were, talking about science and shit. But this dude practically shooed me and his wife into the kitchen to talk about woman things instead of having a real conversation between the four of us. He would take Noah into his "study" and close the door, with the clear implication that we would be interrupting if we went in and tried to join their conversation.
    I would say both situations aren't mutually exclusive, and that both are pressing problems.

    That being said, in the media and current culture, I would say the feminine perspective has more traction than does the male perspective.

    Pretty much since the birth of the "every kid is special" train of thought in education, which came about while I was in elementary school I've felt this way.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not even sure the statistics are being purposefully distorted. I think this idea is still so deeply ingrained (women passive, men active) that even sociological research still reflects it.
    I agree with this. Men and women share this view. It's one reason I would never call the police if I was in a physical confrontation with a woman. Male police officers are unlikely to take my side, unless there is overwhelming evidence in my favor (I've been stabbed or shot).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I would say both situations aren't mutually exclusive, and that both are pressing problems.
    Sure. I think the prevailing attitudes about gender are very comfortable for a lot of people.

    What I wish is that people would just approach each other as individuals. I know that's pie-in-the-sky of me but I like being around interesting people and discussing interesting topics with them. Their gender doesn't matter to me.

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