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  1. #191
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sure, I'll try. I haven't fully fleshed this out myself. There's also a bit of introverted intuition at play here, but I'll do my best. This is going to be pretty simplified though, so I apologize if it seems overly vague.

    Do I need to talk about reward pathways in the brain? If so, I can. But I'm going to skip that for now.

    The problem is actually more than just instant gratification. It's also that we have (virtually) infinite choice. I believe these phenomena actually lead to a LACK of fulfillment, that our animal brains actually prefer some restrictions (despite this being counter-intuitive for many people) and that we're wired to respond better to delayed gratification than instant gratification in our current environment. Western nations have fully succumbed to this, but China has not, though China is headed in that direction. Unfortunately for Western nations, liberal ideals favor individual choice and feelings over what is best for society. So you have an endless cycle of increasing permissiveness, while individual responsibility fails to keep up. (I'm not sure if I worded this well, I'm not particularly happy with what I wrote here, but it's not terrible). China's culture is still much different. It does not value individual freedom to nearly the same extent as Western nations. As it pertains to this particular subject, I believe China is better positioned to "find a place" for the excess men in its society. I don't think Western nations will be able to pull it off. There will be violence one way or another.

    As for the destruction of males' place in society, young males in Western nations are doing progressively worse in school (I admit, I don't know if there are exceptions, but I know this is true for the big players) and little attention is being paid to it. Women now have the more stable jobs (healthcare, education, etc), while men's more dangerous jobs have been shipped overseas or eliminated completely (through automation). That coupled with the changing social dynamic with women leaves many men without a place in society because they're not acceptable "husband material".

    I think there's some sort of interplay between instant gratification and the feminization of our society, but I haven't fully fleshed out that idea either. It's something along the lines of how nurturing is a feminine ideal and if you take the idea of nurturing too far you can end up promoting instant gratification. If this happens on a massive scale, with the Baby Boomer generation for example, it can amplify the effect of advertising/consumerism/etc. I'm not invested in this idea and it's far from being fully formed, but my intuition tells me there's some truth to it.
    I also think that this is very interesting, but given how little you've formed it, it seems VERY BIZARRE to ask feminists to "own" this.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #192
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I don't care about the pedantry, it still seems to imply that.

    Call it something else.
    I tell you what. I'm going to keep calling it male privilege because I want to work with common vocabulary. What I describe is typically referred to as "male privilege." YOU can come up with something better, and if I like it, perhaps I'll use it sometime.

    But in any case, I'd appreciate it if you would quit using your incredibly condescending and bossy tone with me.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #193
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You can always make feminism a more comfortable creed to believe in, one that lacks the violent tone, one that is more inclusive and marginalizes less. But I am trying to pin down the quote in the OP which I don't think many here took seriously:

    'Toxic victim-consciousness is the process by which women are made into a class “acted upon” by emphasizing a disproportionate victimhood where none actually exists or isn’t proven.'

    The first quote I offered (to Ivy) contains a manifesto of destruction based on Marxist class-warfare. The Dworkin quote urges women (the "female class," assumedly) to take responsibility for their own victimhood. But they both emphasize viewing groups of people in terms of very broad strokes which are treated via stereotypes of those things "males" do to "females" and how "females" react to them. Whether or not you believe in that form of rhetoric, the OP quote is pinpointing the radical wing of feminism. It's not pinpointing those who are little more than modern-day suffragettes.
    Here's my rub with academic non-speak (not commenting on the validity of the ideology in question...just a venting non-sequitor).

    Presumably, Dworkin aimed to mobilize support for gender rights to non-believers while serving notice to opposition whenever she composed that speech (1975-6). Different climate with different variables than today. I get it. What narrows my eyes is how she composed her treatise. If her goal was to maximize area of effect and truly, really influence social trends towards a balanced culture, why not use words every man/woman could understand and internalize as ostensible truth towards a unified tomorrow? Why sacrifice support for posture?

    Seems more about asserting superiority than finding commonality -- and not just with men.

  4. #194
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I also think that this is very interesting, but given how little you've formed it, it seems VERY BIZARRE to ask feminists to "own" this.
    I thought it was only fair that if men today have to pay for the sins of their fathers, shouldn't women today have to take ownership of the decline of men? Isn't that equality? Or are men to blame for everything?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I tell you what. I'm going to keep calling it male privilege because I want to work with common vocabulary. What I describe is typically referred to as "male privilege." YOU can come up with something better, and if I like it, perhaps I'll use it sometime.

    But in any case, I'd appreciate it if you would quit using your incredibly condescending and bossy tone with me.
    And I'd appreciate it if you'd got down off the cross.

    But I can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which gets filled up first.

  6. #196
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought it was only fair that if men today have to pay for the sins of their fathers, shouldn't women today have to take ownership for the decline of men? Isn't that equality? Or are men to blame for everything?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #197
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And I'd appreciate it if you'd got down off the cross.

    But I can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which gets filled up first.
    You are just not very pleasant, are you?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    You are just not very pleasant, are you?
    I guess I am the Satan many on this site were hoping I would turn out to be.

    Party for my downfall would you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought it was only fair that if men today have to pay for the sins of their fathers, shouldn't women today have to take ownership of the decline of men? Isn't that equality? Or are men to blame for everything?
    Pretty much this.

    I'm done.

    TTYL.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Actually, what I said is apparently untrue, though I've definitely read to the contrary. Male can be a noun. But if "male privilege" is referring to males in general, it ain't personal, sweetheart.
    Between all of my male privilege and white privilege, I'm running out of places to store it all.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #200
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Between all of my male privilege and white privilege, I'm running out of places to store it all.
    Oh, I'm sure you have some oppression. Everybody's got some! I personally have white privilege, cisgender privilege, relative social class privilege, straight(ish) privilege, and Christian privilege. I usually wear cargo pants so that I have enough pockets.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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