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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    No, and IMO the popular perception of feminism isn't accurate, and is a problem.
    Then that group needs better PR because the message is being distorted. I think many people see Sharon Osbourne as more representative of feminism than someone who might be advocating for proper recording of sexual abuse statistics for both sexes.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then that group needs better PR because the message is being distorted. I think many people see Sharon Osbourne as more representative of feminism than someone who might be advocating for proper recording of sexual abuse statistics for both sexes.
    The problem is it's not a group. It's multiple groups, each with their own agenda, and then the rest of us not in any group officially.

    As a feminist with a son and a daughter, I want both of them to grow up in a better world. I am not more worried about my daughter being victimized than my son. Gender-based pressure would make it harder for him to speak up than her, if God forbid something happened. I also worry about both of them picking up and enacting the actor/acted on dichotomy. I want her to know she can be bold and choose her own adventure (I know he will do that, just based on his personality) and I want him to know he needs to consider the wishes of others in addition to his own (I know she will do that, just based on her personality). Not sure if any of this is making a lick of sense. I didn't sleep well last night.

  3. #13

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    Cursory attempt at fact-checking (using google and scholar.google.com):

    I believe these are the reports she is refering to:
    http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/
    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf
    Note: A 10 year gap between the two.

    "Made-to-penetrate" is indeed in a different category from rape in the NISVS (CDC) report.

    Small excerpt from NVSIS key findings:
    • Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and 1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United States have been raped at some time in their lives, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, or alcohol/drug facilitated completed penetration.
    • More than half (51.1%) of female victims of rape reported being raped by an intimate partner and 40.8% by an acquaintance; for male victims, more than
    half (52.4%) reported being raped by an acquaintance and 15.1% by a stranger.
    • Approximately 1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else during their lifetime; most men who were made to penetrate someone else reported that the perpetrator was either an intimate partner (44.8%) or an acquaintance (44.7%).
    • An estimated 13% of women and 6% of men have experienced sexual coercion in their lifetime (i.e., unwanted sexual penetration after being pressured in a nonphysical way); and 27.2% of women and 11.7% of men have experienced unwanted sexual contact.
    • Most female victims of completed rape (79.6%) experienced their first rape before the age of 25; 42.2% experienced their first completed rape before the age of 18 years.
    • More than one-quarter of male victims of completed rape (27.8%) experienced their first rape when they were 10 years of age or younger.
    Tables 2.1 and 2.2 do indeed show that the number of male victims "made to penetrate" in the last 12-months is roughly equal to the number of women raped in the last 12-months (about 1.2 million).

    As far as 80% of the that men reporting being forced to penetrate by women, I think it comes from the following statement on page 24 (I searched for "perpetrator"):
    For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%).
    As far as concluding that if we look at only the last 12-months (which would make the number of women raped and the number of men "forced-to-penetrate" about the same), and include "forced-to-penetrate" as rape, that the ratio of male-to-female rapists is about 60/40. The math for that is obvious.

    Other studies she mentioned:
    (Windom and Morris 1997)
    http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal...accno=EJ545434
    There are several places to get this, but I didn't see a freely accessible version. So I did not see if the findings she quotes are actually there.
    (Rhodes et al 2001)
    Too many hits. Perhaps someone else can find it.
    (Molnar et al 2001)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513382
    I believe it is this one. Again, I didn't see it freely available. If you on a university campus, you can probably access it.
    (Slater et al 2003)
    http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Dev...ed%20Males.pdf
    (Aloha et al 2009)
    Too many hits. Perhaps someone else can find it.


    I am not sure if it was her title or yours, but "manufacturing victimhood, marginalizing violence" doesn't seem quite accurate. Perhaps just "marginalizing violence" is enough.

    The case being made seems to be:
    1) The prevalence of rape of men is being reduced because of the way rape is defined, and the use of life-time numbers instead of last-12-month numbers.
    2) The prevalence of female perpetrators is being reduced because of the way rape is defined, and the use of life-time numbers instead of last-12-month numbers.

    However, one of the reasons that last-12-month numbers show a more equal distribution is because male victims are less likely to report childhood or longer time passed victimization.

    Are you really arguing that because of this, that women victims are "manufacturing" their victimhood?

    Or are you saying that the sexual violence story is being skewed to make it seem like men are pretty much always the being the bad guys, when the real story is more of a 60/40 thing?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #14
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    ygolo...

    [youtube="UFF1wJN75Z0"]Have I told you lately?[/youtube]

    I meant to say in the other gender thread that IMO, your posts are the closest to complete objectivity than any others I've read. I really appreciate it.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This article, now that I've gone to the original source, is written in equally biased language to the feminist language she protests, though. How I pine for actual-factual objectivity in these sorts of things.
    There is never objectivity, but you can always attempt to check sources. I find if you just go through the process of finding out where someone get their "facts", you are far less likely to be swayed by pathos alone.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #16
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    There is never objectivity, but you can always attempt to check sources. I find if you just go through the process of finding out where someone get their "facts", you are far less likely to be swayed by pathos alone.
    Well, anyway, you seem to have less of an agenda than anybody else posting about gender, including me.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The problem is it's not a group. It's multiple groups, each with their own agenda, and then the rest of us not in any group officially.

    As a feminist with a son and a daughter, I want both of them to grow up in a better world. I am not more worried about my daughter being victimized than my son. Gender-based pressure would make it harder for him to speak up than her, if God forbid something happened. I also worry about both of them picking up and enacting the actor/acted on dichotomy. I want her to know she can be bold and choose her own adventure (I know he will do that, just based on his personality) and I want him to know he needs to consider the wishes of others in addition to his own (I know she will do that, just based on her personality). Not sure if any of this is making a lick of sense. I didn't sleep well last night.
    It makes sense and my problem isn't with you. I've known you long enough on this forum to know that you're a very reasonable, rational person. My problem is with groups, movements, or whatever you want to call them that allow their messages to be distorted or used in ways that harm society (and I know it's not easy to avoid this, but that's part of the advocate's job description, IMO). Maybe it's time to drop the term feminism and replace it with something more accurate or precise?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #18
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The title was the author's, not mine and I'm not "arguing" anything.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It makes sense and my problem isn't with you. I've known you long enough on this forum to know that you're a very reasonable, rational person. My problem is with groups, movements, or whatever you want to call them that allow their messages to be distorted or used in ways that harm society (and I know it's not easy to avoid this, but that's part of the advocate's job description, IMO). Maybe it's time to drop the term feminism and replace it with something more accurate or precise?
    I don't know that that will happen... feminism isn't just a term in the US/Europe where things are at least on their way to being better. Things still really suck for women in other parts of the world.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know that that will happen... feminism isn't just a term in the US/Europe where things are at least on their way to being better. Things still really suck for women in other parts of the world.
    That seems illogical to me. If you're focusing solely on women's rights, the term feminism seems fine. But if you're focusing on both genders that term is inadequate at best, misleading at worst.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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