User Tag List

First 91718192021 Last

Results 181 to 190 of 237

  1. #181
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Sure I accept it, but the more you harp on past redresses that weren't committed by me or my peers, the less I'm liable to listen to you.

    More to the point, those past issues shouldn't completely color our understanding of gender issues today. Because the world of today is much different.
    Also, I fixed that to say "patriarchy" rather then men, because I'm not talking about YOU (I have to keep saying that. It's a system. It's not YOU. YOU are making it about YOU.)
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    14,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Yeah, I'm going to back out of that and agree with Ivy that there is no Feminism The One Thing. If it helps my pluralism cred at all, I'm also a Christian But Not That Kind Of Christian.

    Though I will also say that while that's all super violent language that I would never use, the point is that the two gender norms--manhood that oppresses and femininity that is passively acted upon--feed each other and are highly problematic to each other, and women may have the power to reject that and start to turn all that on its head. It's not that feminism wants to castrate men; it's that feminism envisions a different kind of manhood and womanhood, with deeper humanity, that doesn't mutually enforce bad shit.
    You can always make feminism a more comfortable creed to believe in, one that lacks the violent tone, one that is more inclusive and marginalizes less. But I am trying to pin down the quote in the OP which I don't think many here took seriously:

    'Toxic victim-consciousness is the process by which women are made into a class “acted upon” by emphasizing a disproportionate victimhood where none actually exists or isn’t proven.'

    The first quote I offered (to Ivy) contains a manifesto of destruction based on Marxist class-warfare. The Dworkin quote urges women (the "female class," assumedly) to take responsibility for their own victimhood. But they both emphasize viewing groups of people in terms of very broad strokes which are treated via stereotypes of those things "males" do to "females" and how "females" react to them. Whether or not you believe in that form of rhetoric, the OP quote is pinpointing the radical wing of feminism. It's not pinpointing those who are little more than modern-day suffragettes.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #183
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    It isn't different enough to ignore them.
    Did I say it was.

    We should not forget them. But they also shouldn't form the foundation of our understanding of gender relations today. They are a footnote in terms of relevance.

    Unless it's the old boys clubs of old men that bother you. Then it's a bigger problem. But even then, they're old, and wont be around too much longer.

    Either way the issue seems to be pretty overstated from your end.

  4. #184
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Also, I fixed that to say "patriarchy" rather then men, because I'm not talking about YOU (I have to keep saying that. It's a system. It's not YOU. YOU are making it about YOU.)
    If you don't mean men individually then you shouldn't refer to it as Male privilege, that implies every male.

  5. #185
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    Just because I didn't see anyone mention this, there was a section of the literature from the first page that seemed (possibly intentional) misleading (if it isn't intentional, it was a pretty obvious error):

    The Real Ratio of Male to Female Rapists

    If we look at the more reliable statistic, the risk of rape in the last twelve months, and we fix the NIPSVS’s mistake in classifying forced envelopment as “other sexual assault” and not rape, we find that 80% of men report a female rapist and 98% of women report a male rapist.

    That works out to 40% of rapists being female and 60% being male. A far cry from 95+% of rapists being male.
    This section assumes that there are an equal number of male to female rapes. This is pretty clearly untrue. Not to say I think female on male rape should be trivialized (or, more accurately, continue to be), but that section is disingenuous.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #186
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Can you flesh this out a little for me?
    Sure, I'll try. I haven't fully fleshed this out myself. There's also a bit of introverted intuition at play here, but I'll do my best. This is going to be pretty simplified though, so I apologize if it seems overly vague.

    Do I need to talk about reward pathways in the brain? If so, I can. But I'm going to skip that for now.

    The problem is actually more than just instant gratification. It's also that we have (virtually) infinite choice. I believe these phenomena actually lead to a LACK of fulfillment, that our animal brains actually prefer some restrictions (despite this being counter-intuitive for many people) and that we're wired to respond better to delayed gratification than instant gratification in our current environment. Western nations have fully succumbed to this, but China has not, though China is headed in that direction. Unfortunately for Western nations, liberal ideals favor individual choice and feelings over what is best for society. So you have an endless cycle of increasing permissiveness, while individual responsibility fails to keep up. (I'm not sure if I worded this well, I'm not particularly happy with what I wrote here, but it's not terrible). China's culture is still much different. It does not value individual freedom to nearly the same extent as Western nations. As it pertains to this particular subject, I believe China is better positioned to "find a place" for the excess men in its society. I don't think Western nations will be able to pull it off. There will be violence one way or another.

    As for the destruction of males' place in society, young males in Western nations are doing progressively worse in school (I admit, I don't know if there are exceptions, but I know this is true for the big players) and little attention is being paid to it. Women now have the more stable jobs (healthcare, education, etc), while men's more dangerous jobs have been shipped overseas or eliminated completely (through automation). That coupled with the changing social dynamic with women leaves many men without a place in society because they're not acceptable "husband material".

    I think there's some sort of interplay between instant gratification and the feminization of our society, but I haven't fully fleshed out that idea either. It's something along the lines of how nurturing is a feminine ideal and if you take the idea of nurturing too far you can end up promoting instant gratification. If this happens on a massive scale, with the Baby Boomer generation for example, it can amplify the effect of advertising/consumerism/etc. I'm not invested in this idea and it's far from being fully formed, but my intuition tells me there's some truth to it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #187
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If you don't mean men individually then you shouldn't refer to it as Male privilege, that implies every male.
    Actually, male is an adjective. It describes the group privilege. It's technically incorrect to refer to male people as "males." I don't like getting picky like that, but if you're going there, I promise you that I can play.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #188
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sure, I'll try. I haven't fully fleshed this out myself. There's also a bit of introverted intuition at play here, but I'll do my best. This is going to be pretty simplified though, so I apologize if it seems overly vague.

    Do I need to talk about reward pathways in the brain? If so, I can. But I'm going to skip that for now.

    The problem is actually more than just instant gratification. It's also that we have (virtually) infinite choice. I believe these phenomena actually lead to a LACK of fulfillment, that our animal brains actually prefer some restrictions (despite this being counter-intuitive for many people) and that we're wired to respond better to delayed gratification than instant gratification in our current environment. Western nations have fully succumbed to this, but China has not, though China is headed in that direction. Unfortunately for Western nations, liberal ideals favor individual choice and feelings over what is best for society. So you have an endless cycle of increasing permissiveness, while individual responsibility fails to keep up. (I'm not sure if I worded this well, I'm not particularly happy with what I wrote here, but it's not terrible). China's culture is still much different. It does not value individual freedom to nearly the same extent as Western nations. As it pertains to this particular subject, I believe China is better positioned to "find a place" for the excess men in its society. I don't think Western nations will be able to pull it off. There will be violence one way or another.

    As for the destruction of males' place in society, young males in Western nations are doing progressively worse in school (I admit, I don't know if there are exceptions, but I know this is true for the big players) and little attention is being paid to it. Women now have the more stable jobs (healthcare, education, etc), while men's more dangerous jobs have been shipped overseas or eliminated completely (through automation). That coupled with the changing social dynamic with women leaves many men without a place in society.

    I think there's some sort of interplay between instant gratification and the feminization of our society, but I haven't fully fleshed out that idea either. It's something along the lines of how nurturing is a feminine ideal and if you take the idea of nurturing too far you can end up promoting instant gratification. If this happens on a massive scale, with the Baby Boomer generation for example, it can amplify the effect of advertising/consumerism/etc. I'm not invested in this idea and it's far from being fully formed, but my intuition tells me there's some truth to it.
    Thanks for taking the time to hammer this out for me. Makes more sense now. I think you're on to some really interesting ideas with this..

  9. #189
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Actually, male is an adjective. It describes the group privilege. It's technically incorrect to refer to male people as "males." I don't like getting picky like that, but if you're going there, I promise you that I can play.
    Actually, what I said is apparently untrue, though I've definitely read to the contrary. Male can be a noun. But if "male privilege" is referring to males in general, it ain't personal, sweetheart.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #190
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Actually, male is an adjective. It describes the group privilege. It's technically incorrect to refer to male people as "males." I don't like getting picky like that, but if you're going there, I promise you that I can play.
    I don't care about the pedantry, it still seems to imply that.

    Call it something else.

Similar Threads

  1. Raped at 8 and left for dead, a victim raises her voice
    By Nonsensical in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-28-2009, 01:30 PM
  2. BroRape Awareness: Don't be a Victim!
    By Nonsensical in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-23-2009, 10:14 PM
  3. 911 operator scolds victim; victim dies
    By digesthisickness in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-25-2009, 11:25 PM
  4. Ultimate hoax victim qualities?
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-12-2008, 10:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO