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  1. #171
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Like, you guys have honestly lost me with your males-lost-their-place-in-society leads to genocide business. And I'm pretty sure that it isn't because I'm not smart, because I'm pretty damn smart.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  2. #172
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It might be offensive, but it's not ridiculous. China has this problem. Japan has this problem. European countries have this problem. And it's coming to the US soon. I actually expect China to handle this problem better than any Western nations. Instant gratification hasn't come to completely dominate its culture yet. This is the result of the destruction of males' place in society. Own it.
    Can you flesh this out a little for me?

  3. #173
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Like, you guys have honestly lost me with your males-lost-their-place-in-society leads to genocide business. And I'm pretty sure that it isn't because I'm not smart, because I'm pretty damn smart.
    Some like Nascar because they hope for car crashes -- not to see who drives best.

  4. #174
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Like, you guys have honestly lost me with your males-lost-their-place-in-society leads to genocide business. And I'm pretty sure that it isn't because I'm not smart, because I'm pretty damn smart.
    Here's how I'm feeling about the direction this thread has taken:

    [youtube="157IexINK5o"]WAT[/youtube]

  5. #175
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    There is just a shit-ton of misogyny and, as Orangey and Ivy (and probably others) have pointed out, a very fundamental misunderstanding of feminism in this thread.
    From the horse's mouth:

    "I believe that freedom for women must begin in the repudiation of our own masochism. I believe that we must destroy in ourselves the drive to masochism at its sexual roots. I believe that we must establish our own authenticity, individually and among ourselves--to experience it, to create from it, and also to deprive men of occasions for reifying the lie of manhood over and against us. I believe that ridding ourselves of our own deeply entrenched masochism, which takes so many tortured forms, is the first priority; it is the first deadly blow that we can strike against systematized male dominance. In effect, when we succeed in excising masochism from our own personalities and constitutions, we will be cutting the male life line to power over and against us, to male worth in contradistinction to female degradation, to male identity posited on brutally enforced female negativity--we will be cutting the male life line to manhood itself. Only when manhood is dead--and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it--only then will we know what it is to be free." Andrea Dworkin http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OurBloodIV.html

    Is this what you meant by a "misunderstanding of feminism"?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #176
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    From the horse's mouth:

    "I believe that freedom for women must begin in the repudiation of our own masochism. I believe that we must destroy in ourselves the drive to masochism at its sexual roots. I believe that we must establish our own authenticity, individually and among ourselves--to experience it, to create from it, and also to deprive men of occasions for reifying the lie of manhood over and against us. I believe that ridding ourselves of our own deeply entrenched masochism, which takes so many tortured forms, is the first priority; it is the first deadly blow that we can strike against systematized male dominance. In effect, when we succeed in excising masochism from our own personalities and constitutions, we will be cutting the male life line to power over and against us, to male worth in contradistinction to female degradation, to male identity posited on brutally enforced female negativity--we will be cutting the male life line to manhood itself. Only when manhood is dead--and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it--only then will we know what it is to be free." Andrea Dworkin http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OurBloodIV.html


    Is this what you meant by a "misunderstanding of feminism"?

    Yeah, I'm going to back out of that and agree with Ivy that there is no Feminism The One Thing. If it helps my pluralism cred at all, I'm also a Christian But Not That Kind Of Christian.

    Though I will also say that while that's all super violent language that I would never use, the point is that the two gender norms--manhood that oppresses and femininity that is passively acted upon--feed each other and are highly problematic to each other, and women may have the power to reject that and start to turn all that on its head. It's not that feminism wants to castrate men; it's that feminism envisions a different kind of manhood and womanhood, with deeper humanity, that doesn't mutually enforce bad shit.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    It's not that feminism wants to castrate men; it's that feminism envisions a different kind of manhood and womanhood, with deeper humanity, that doesn't mutually enforce bad shit.
    Feminism has no right to envision any kind of manhood.

    That is for us to determine.

  8. #178
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Feminism has no right to envision any kind of manhood.

    That is for us to determine.
    Perhaps that's true. I agree, in theory at least. But do you grant that for centuries, MILLENNIA, and even now in some places and even HERE in some ways, men have envisioned and enforced womanhood?

    I would like to fix that, actually. Not men.

    Patriarchy has envisioned and enforced womanhood.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    But do you grant that for centuries, MILLENNIA, and even now in some places and even HERE in some ways, men have envisioned and enforced womanhood?
    Sure I accept it, but the more you harp on past redresses that weren't committed by me or my peers, the less I'm liable to listen to you.

    More to the point, those past issues shouldn't completely color our understanding of gender issues today. Because the world of today is much different.

  10. #180
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Sure I accept it, but the more you harp on past redresses that weren't committed by me or my peers, the less I'm liable to listen to you.

    More to the point, those past issues shouldn't completely color our understanding of gender issues today. Because the world of today is much different.
    It isn't different enough to ignore them.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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