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  1. #151
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think you're correct, though, that the average guy doesn't have any privilege. I know that it isn't something done on purpose, and I believe most men (and women) are good-hearted and wouldn't participate consciously. But that's why these things are so insidious. I don't believe my husband WANTS to have privilege, but he acknowledges that it exists (against his will- against most people's will, actually) and works to correct it when he can.
    I've done some reading on the institutional parallels between gender bias and racial discrimination, specifically within the context of business environments. Some of it is hawkish 'majority rule' (No Homers! club) nonsense enforced by selective credentialing disguised as honest employment opportunity. In other instances, it seems like carryover from pre-Civil Rights philosophy that has simply failed to extinguish over time. Hard part is, these examples are difficult to notice as they can frequently become almost culturally invisible (to your 'insidious' point) unless things like demographic analysis are performed -- and even then often by outside consultants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Example: right now, today, my husband can go to his job full time and nobody on the planet will question his worth as a father. Yet when a mother of young children makes the same decision, she is subject to a chorus of "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?" Why her? Why not her husband? (Note- I'm not angry or huffy as I post this- I'm calmly, rationally, pointing out an example of privilege that goes unnoticed much of the time.)
    Speaking of demographics, it'd be interesting to review the statistical breakdowns of folks who actively voice gender-specific concerns in the workplace. Most corporate environments I've worked in are almost entirely sterilized of these types of behaviors -- in fact, it's usually unflinching cultural taboo, with Human Resources swinging the nightstick. While I don't doubt that it happens -- maybe even commonplace in some occupations -- I think the likelihood of this type of...external...bias is hopefully on the decline.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but once a child is born, that child no longer actually occupies his or her mother's body. A man could take care of born children. But he's not expected to. Male privilege.

    But you don't care, so you gave Ivy a quarter. Nice! Ivy, what are you going to buy with that quarter? I suggest chocolate-covered espresso beans. I love those.
    You should amend this to include nursing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #153
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Here's the problem. Obviously they can be changed for women, but you can't just change them for men. Men can't just do "whatever" and feel like they have a place in society. The male brain doesn't work that way. You should have figured out the substitute before you implemented the policy.
    Another link.

    “The thing is, it’s patriarchy that says men are stupid and monolithic and unchanging and incapable. It’s patriarchy that says men have animalistic instincts and just can’t stop themselves from harassing and assaulting. It’s patriarchy that says men can only be attracted by certain qualities, can only have particular kinds of responses, can only experience the world in narrow ways. Feminism holds that men are capable of more – are more than that.”
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #154
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Men can't just do "whatever" and feel like they have a place in society. The male brain doesn't work that way.
    This sounds pretty misandrist.
    Why do you hate men?
    4w5-1w2-5w4 -- RLUAI -- Chaotic Good/Neutral

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    Ask me about my crippling social dysfunction!

  5. #155
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You should amend this to include nursing.
    Which isn't essential to the survival (or thrival- I know that's not a word, but I want it to be) of the baby. And if the mother wants to nurse and work they make these awesome contraptions that allow her to extract the milk so someone else can feed the baby. Which reminds me, wouldn't a steampunk breast pump be rad? I think that would be rad.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Which reminds me, wouldn't a steampunk breast pump be rad? I think that would be rad.
    Um, yes. Here's where we start:

    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think it's really interesting that you (DB) keep coming back with dismissive statements like "you need to stop this shit right now" (I don't know about anyone else, but when I read that, I heard "missy" at the end of it) and "here's a quarter call someone who cares" in response to calm, rational argument. Especially in light of your earlier complaint that women are often surprised when you don't just agree with what they say because they're women.
    Certain shit aggravates certain people.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Another link.
    Patriarchy? I've never studied it. I prefer to compare human behavior to the behavior of other primates. I also didn't say anything about assaulting anyone, but we do all have animal instincts. Anyone who claims that we don't is either brainwashed or an idiot, probably both. A couple pages back I wrote about my opinion on animal instincts and how our society is completely fucked up because of it (instant gratification DOMINATES our society).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #159
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Patriarchy? I've never studied it. I prefer to compare human behavior to the behavior of other primates. I also didn't say anything about assaulting anyone, but we do all have animal instincts. Anyone who claims that we don't is either brainwashed or an idiot, probably both. A couple pages back I wrote about my opinion on animal instincts and how our society is completely fucked up because of it (instant gratification DOMINATES our society).
    No. I didn't write that; I just thought it was apropos. The notion that men can't change or can't handle change or whatever it was that you were trying to say there (if it's not the former) is problematic. And sexist, right? I think it's pretty sexist. If I said that, I'd want you to call me a sexist.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  10. #160
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Which isn't essential to the survival (or thrival- I know that's not a word, but I want it to be) of the baby. And if the mother wants to nurse and work they make these awesome contraptions that allow her to extract the milk so someone else can feed the baby. Which reminds me, wouldn't a steampunk breast pump be rad? I think that would be rad.
    I was speaking in an evolutionary sense. It is absolutely essential to the survival of all mammals. It's one of the defining characteristic of our phylogenetic class.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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