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  1. #141
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think it's really interesting that you (DB) keep coming back with dismissive statements like "you need to stop this shit right now" (I don't know about anyone else, but when I read that, I heard "missy" at the end of it) and "here's a quarter call someone who cares" in response to calm, rational argument. Especially in light of your earlier complaint that women are often surprised when you don't just agree with what they say because they're women.

  2. #142
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm sorry you have a womb and your husband doesn't. And I'm sorry the fact that the woman is commonly expected to raise that child affects what people would say to you should you choose to work while your children are small.

    But this doesn't sound like male privilege, this sounds like a physical difference (regarding not having a womb), and a problem with cultural expectations. Your choice is your own and I couldn't give 2 shits what you do as a parent.

    What I fail to see is how these cultural expectations are reflective of some sort of privilege, and not the fact that women get pregnant and have historically been tasked with raising kids when they're little.

    I'm not trying to propagate it. I'm trying to tell you we're tired of hearing about it.

    Call your congressman, vote, start a committee, make a campaign, but don't claim there is some insidious thing I have and actively try to take away from you that is the cause of all problems women have in the culture.

    [YOUTUBE="29ebiwO4O70"]Here's a quarter call someone who cares...[/YOUTUBE]
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but once a child is born, that child no longer actually occupies his or her mother's body. A man could take care of born children. But he's not expected to. Male privilege.

    But you don't care, so you gave Ivy a quarter. Nice! Ivy, what are you going to buy with that quarter? I suggest chocolate-covered espresso beans. I love those.
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  3. #143
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    She didn't mention the other side of that, where Noah also has responsibility. He doesn't have any choice but to make money. And if he fails, he loses his value as a human being. He's a deadbeat, something that used to be one of the worst things you could call a man. It's not as bad anymore because the concepts of manhood and fatherhood are now redundant. Men don't get this "privilege" without responsibility.
    No. Men are hurt too by patriarchy. It is unfair for everyone.
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  4. #144
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    She didn't mention the other side of that, where Noah also has responsibility. He doesn't have any choice but to make money. And if he fails, he loses his value as a human being. He's a deadbeat, something that used to be one of the worst things you could call a man. It's not as bad anymore because the concepts of manhood and fatherhood are now redundant. Men don't get this "privilege" without responsibility.
    Actually, that has been mentioned (see: how patriarchy hurts men). Changing these cultural expectations would give men more freedom as well as women. It's not a war of men against women - one side doesn't have to be stepped on for the other side to be treated fairly.
    -end of thread-

  5. #145
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    She didn't mention the other side of that, where Noah also has responsibility. He doesn't have any choice but to make money. And if he fails, he loses his value as a human being. He's a deadbeat, something that used to be one of the worst things you could call a man. It's not as bad anymore because the concepts of manhood and fatherhood are now redundant. Men don't get this "privilege" without responsibility.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think these structures fail women AND men (so, that's all of us, I think). Noah actually has been out of work for an extended amount of time before, and although we did okay because I was able to make enough to scrape by, he was of course depressed.

    It's worth mentioning that I was also out of work for a few months last year, and I also got depressed. I didn't have any of the societal pressures on me that he did when he was unemployed, and I still felt it (because we were struggling and I wanted to help and felt guilty).

  6. #146
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Actually, that has been mentioned (see: how patriarchy hurts men). Changing these cultural expectations would give men more freedom as well as women. It's not a war of men against women - one side doesn't have to be stepped on for the other side to be treated fairly.
    Exactly. Thank you.

  7. #147
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think it's really interesting that you (DB) keep coming back with dismissive statements like "you need to stop this shit right now" (I don't know about anyone else, but when I read that, I heard "missy" at the end of it) and "here's a quarter call someone who cares" in response to calm, rational argument. Especially in light of your earlier complaint that women are often surprised when you don't just agree with what they say because they're women.
    I just thought it was ironic that it came right after Eileen's post with the quoted text about the ways in which white males strategically disrupt femininst conversation. She said many things, and he kind of dropped them all and focused offense on that one side point (which I think she might have even edited out of the post at that point in time, I never saw the original), which basically allowed the rest of the post to be effectively ignored unless someone else dragged it back up.

    Can we illustrate the point any more effectively?

    EDIT: Reading and nodding with Lat's comments about the pressures on men and being considered a "deadbeat" if you're unemployed. Being unemployed can be depressing for anyone, but I think men have a lot of pressure in that area. I can say that, although that kind of work didn't really define me when I had to deal with such thing, I felt a bombardment of pressure and shame radiating from the outer world the time when I was out of work for five months or so. There was also a feeling like, "This is your job and role within the family, you need to find work and produce income as a primary responsibility...." I think the "motherhood" thing has been more intense for me personally, because of my identification, and I feel like I'm a bad mom because I'm not with my children, and I even started to get that junk from a few people at work, it was annoying as heck to see how I was being judged without them knowing anything of my background or character.

    This might be a side issue, I'm not sure, but it's an interesting counterpoint....

    I've watch my INTP friend's marriage operate in a situation where he is the stay-at-home dad because his INTJ wife makes more money in research than he did in journalism. he loves his three daughters and is a great dad, and he's very involved in their education, whether outside the home or engaging them on subjects of interest to him (literature, science, faith). I can't imagine any dad loving his kids more, and yet he's just having a really hard time, now, eventually, because he hasn't been able to do work that isn't attached to family... he wants to be writing much more, and he can get very demoralized because the stay-at-home dad thing can't fulfill all his needs. It's like whatever and however he expresses and invests himself, there is something in the craft he practices that parenting can't really take the place of, even if he is a good parent and loves his kids. I don't really know what I mean to say with all that, just that it was interesting to me when he's been sharing his feeling with me about it.
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  8. #148
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not "in a huff." I'm simply pointing out the realities of the business world. I hope you're right that things will be more fair going forward- I don't know that they will, though, and I think we should work together toward that end.

    I don't think you're correct, though, that the average guy doesn't have any privilege. I know that it isn't something done on purpose, and I believe most men (and women) are good-hearted and wouldn't participate consciously. But that's why these things are so insidious. I don't believe my husband WANTS to have privilege, but he acknowledges that it exists (against his will- against most people's will, actually) and works to correct it when he can. Example: right now, today, my husband can go to his job full time and nobody on the planet will question his worth as a father. Yet when a mother of young children makes the same decision, she is subject to a chorus of "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?" Why her? Why not her husband? (Note- I'm not angry or huffy as I post this- I'm calmly, rationally, pointing out an example of privilege that goes unnoticed much of the time.)
    Calling the acknowledgment of this kind of thing whining or getting in a huff or being a victim is a great way to keep propagating it.
    I can see both sides of this. personally, I assume that the woman's children are adequately taken care of, but when they aren't, I think that the children should be a higher priority for a woman than her career. I think, in general, women understand children better and are more biologically equipped to give them nurturing and support than a man is (there are plenty of exceptions to this. me included. I'm proud to say I'd make a kick ass mom LOL) and I think that children should be the first priority of any mother of any species.
    similarly, I think it is the father's responsibility to be a pillar of strength, a firm yet gentle disciplinarian and a consistent provider

    at the end of the day though, the most important thing is that both partners are responsible parents. as long as both parents are doing their fair share and everything gets done, I have no problems with parents swapping gender associated responsibilities (not that it would really matter what I thought anyway, it ain't my decision)

    PS: on a side note, I think part of the problem is that relationships with age gaps are not well accepted in today's culture. there is a reason why women in general prefer older men. they're more stable and generally have more money. pregnancy and raising children are energy intensive endeavors. it's easier for a woman if she at least has the option of being able to leave productivity related pursuits to the father for a certain amount of time. older men also tend to have more self control, and would likely be better role models for the children. my dad was 40 when I was born and, while he probably wouldn't have been quite so boring had I been born earlier, I think it was an advantage growing up.
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  9. #149
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Actually, that has been mentioned (see: how patriarchy hurts men). Changing these cultural expectations would give men more freedom as well as women. It's not a war of men against women - one side doesn't have to be stepped on for the other side to be treated fairly.
    Here's the problem. Obviously they can be changed for women, but you can't just change them for men. Men can't just do "whatever" and feel like they have a place in society. The male brain doesn't work that way. You should have figured out the substitute before you implemented the policy.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #150
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but once a child is born, that child no longer actually occupies his or her mother's body. A man could take care of born children. But he's not expected to. Male privilege.

    But you don't care, so you gave Ivy a quarter. Nice! Ivy, what are you going to buy with that quarter? I suggest chocolate-covered espresso beans. I love those.
    Do they still have those vending machines where you put in a quarter and the chicken flaps and squawks and lays you an egg with a ring or a temporary tattoo in it? That's what I want.

    Disco, I (and I think Eileen, and probably others) have never said, and in fact have repeatedly said the opposite, that you (men) are "actively trying to take away" anything at all from women. It's not something ANY individual does on their own. It's, as you say, a problem with cultural expectations.

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