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  1. #131
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And that is a privilege that won't be there for me, or those of my generation.

    If you want to get all in a huff about how corporate hiring practices at the very top, that is your right.

    But that is a TINY fraction of the hiring that goes on all over the nation. By and large, there is nothing holding back my female classmates that isn't also holding me back.

    This is my problem with this whole privilege argument, the average guy doesn't have any of this privilege.
    I'm not "in a huff." I'm simply pointing out the realities of the business world. I hope you're right that things will be more fair going forward- I don't know that they will, though, and I think we should work together toward that end.

    I don't think you're correct, though, that the average guy doesn't have any privilege. I know that it isn't something done on purpose, and I believe most men (and women) are good-hearted and wouldn't participate consciously. But that's why these things are so insidious. I don't believe my husband WANTS to have privilege, but he acknowledges that it exists (against his will- against most people's will, actually) and works to correct it when he can. Example: right now, today, my husband can go to his job full time and nobody on the planet will question his worth as a father. Yet when a mother of young children makes the same decision, she is subject to a chorus of "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?" Why her? Why not her husband? (Note- I'm not angry or huffy as I post this- I'm calmly, rationally, pointing out an example of privilege that goes unnoticed much of the time.)

    Calling the acknowledgment of this kind of thing whining or getting in a huff or being a victim is a great way to keep propagating it.

  2. #132
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I think the main problem has little to do with gender at all. the main problem is people don't respect each other. there was a time when people used to actually respect each other, assume the person they were talking to was a responsible, productive person with a functioning brain capable of reason. nowadays, people talk to everyone below the age of 45 like children. it's ridiculous and disrespectful
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  3. #133
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    These "fringe" groups you denounce have had a lot more influence than you and those who think like you. And no matter how many times you repeat this point, it doesn't change the practical reality. Your message is not heard. Other messages branded as "feminism" are and they are prevalent in the media. Public perception matters.
    I don't know why feminism is expected to be able to conquer the "loudmouth fringe" phenomenon when neither major political party, nor Christianity or Islam, has been able to do it. Why not put the onus on rational individuals to see through the media circus to the sea of quieter, more reasonable practitioners that don't seek out media coverage?

  4. #134
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And before you go ahead and reiterate all the things from that list that are media driven, let me tell you this.

    The average man does not have any control over what the big wigs decide will appeal to the American audience.

    Men individually, have almost no role in propagating this privilege.
    I agree with this. You are not actively TAKING anything from women, individually. Somewhere on this site, I wrote a post about hegemony--I think it was about race, but I'll find it later and see if it's relevant. But there is a *system* of privilege and disadvantage. You didn't cause it. It's not your fault. You should not feel guilty about it. You were born into a world where this one point of identity--maleness--gives you an edge in some arenas. You have other points of identity--I don't know the specifics, but other points of identity that can privilege or disadvantage a person are race, sexual orientation, gender identity, socioeconomic class, religious affiliation, and the like. I think class is a really huge one that tends to be the one where many white, straight, cisgender men feel (and are) disadvantaged.

    You, individually, do not choose what appeals to the American audience. But you are--and your brothers are, and for that matter, your sisters are--a consumer. And we are socialized to consume. So, just as an example, there is a pretty typical image of a woman used to sell things. She'll probably be pretty thin, probably have pretty sizeable breasts, probably have wide eyes and full lips, and probably not be wearing much in the way of clothing. And we are ALL, women included, socialized to be attracted to her (as a sexual object or as an aspiration of the self) and buy whatever her body is being used to sell. This is an example of systemic patriarchy. You didn't do it. I didn't do it. But we bought the thing, and we perpetuated the image.

    And as an individual result (for example), I spent time in a relationship where my body was constantly either put on a pedestal or denigrated for not being quite right, and I internalized my partner's obsessions and lamented that I was some kind of failure. And *I* am a fucking feminist--this is very unbecoming to my intellectual position. But my individual result is just a stand-in for widespread individual results that perpetuate the problem--do you see what I'm saying?

    It's nice to have opinions.

    Stop thinking you're a victim and you might stop acting like one.
    I don't think I act like a victim, actually. I think we're all victims of a patriarchal system--very often, I have more empathy for men whose full humanities are diminished in patriarchy than I have for women who display internalized oppression (like women who espouse anti-feminist views). I try to be an advocate and a community-builder when I can--not a victim. But you don't know me--you just know that I'm a feminist, so you assume that I act like a victim. Where I've been a victim of individual men or the system at large, I want to be able to speak about that in my advocacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well maybe those people are from earlier generations where the gap was prevalent.

    Check entry level positions and do the same study.
    Entry level positions aren't the relevant ones. What will be significant is to see how women (and let's just say women who choose to be mothers in particular, though women in general is also significant) progress up a corporate ladder in the next chunk of time.
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  5. #135
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post

    Calling the acknowledgment of this kind of thing whining or getting in a huff or being a victim is a great way to keep propagating it.
    Yes m'am. God bless you, Ivy.
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  6. #136
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not "in a huff." I'm simply pointing out the realities of the business world. I hope you're right that things will be more fair going forward- I don't know that they will, though, and I think we should work together toward that end.
    They won't be more fair going forward. Culturally, too much momentum favors females. Sure, some males will succeed (the Mitt Romneys of the world), but we have some serious, serious problems. In Britain, 20% of men 25 and younger are unemployable. Not unemployed, unemployable. If that isn't a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is. And the US is following in Europe's footsteps.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Example: right now, today, my husband can go to his job full time and nobody on the planet will question his worth as a father. Yet when a mother of young children makes the same decision, she is subject to a chorus of "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?" Why her? Why not her husband? (Note- I'm not angry or huffy as I post this- I'm calmly, rationally, pointing out an example of privilege that goes unnoticed much of the time.)

    Calling the acknowledgment of this kind of thing whining or getting in a huff or being a victim is a great way to keep propagating it.
    I'm sorry you have a womb and your husband doesn't. And I'm sorry the fact that the woman is commonly expected to raise that child affects what people would say to you should you choose to work while your children are small.

    But this doesn't sound like male privilege, this sounds like a physical difference (regarding not having a womb), and a problem with cultural expectations. Your choice is your own and I couldn't give 2 shits what you do as a parent.

    What I fail to see is how these cultural expectations are reflective of some sort of privilege, and not the fact that women get pregnant and have historically been tasked with raising kids when they're little.

    I'm not trying to propagate it. I'm trying to tell you we're tired of hearing about it.

    Call your congressman, vote, start a committee, make a campaign, but don't claim there is some insidious thing I have and actively try to take away from you that is the cause of all problems women have in the culture.

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  8. #138
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't know why feminism is expected to be able to conquer the "loudmouth fringe" phenomenon when neither major political party, nor Christianity or Islam, has been able to do it. Why not put the onus on rational individuals to see through the media circus to the sea of quieter, more reasonable practitioners that don't seek out media coverage?
    I don't hold feminism to a higher standard. I expect all ideologies to conquer the loudmouth fringe. Haven't you seen my railing against Republicans? Didn't MacGuffin recently create a thread on a related issue? It pisses me off whoever does it. And I'd be ranting against religion more often, too, if I bothered to debate religion on this forum (but that's one of the most pointless debates imaginable, so I don't bother).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #139
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think you're correct, though, that the average guy doesn't have any privilege. I know that it isn't something done on purpose, and I believe most men (and women) are good-hearted and wouldn't participate consciously. But that's why these things are so insidious. I don't believe my husband WANTS to have privilege, but he acknowledges that it exists (against his will- against most people's will, actually) and works to correct it when he can. Example: right now, today, my husband can go to his job full time and nobody on the planet will question his worth as a father. Yet when a mother of young children makes the same decision, she is subject to a chorus of "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?" Why her? Why not her husband? (Note- I'm not angry or huffy as I post this- I'm calmly, rationally, pointing out an example of privilege that goes unnoticed much of the time.)

    Calling the acknowledgment of this kind of thing whining or getting in a huff or being a victim is a great way to keep propagating it.
    This is very true. A woman on the plane the other day mentioned that she traveled for a living and that she had kids. We got to talking about how that works our for her, and she said that her mother in law helps out when she's away working. My Husband travels for a living and now that I am preparing to go back to work, I am working towards doing something that will allow me a flexible schedule, so that I can be home for the kids. And yes, the first thing out of people's mouths is always, "what about the kids?"

  10. #140
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm sorry you have a womb and your husband doesn't. And I'm sorry the fact that the woman is commonly expected to raise that child affects what people would say to you should you choose to work while your children are small.
    She didn't mention the other side of that, where Noah also has responsibility. He doesn't have any choice but to make money. And if he fails, he loses his value as a human being. He's a deadbeat, something that used to be one of the worst things you could call a man. It's not as bad anymore because the concepts of manhood and fatherhood are now redundant. Men don't get this "privilege" without responsibility.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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