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  1. #121
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    And before you go ahead and reiterate all the things from that list that are media driven, let me tell you this.

    The average man does not have any control over what the big wigs decide will appeal to the American audience.

    Men individually, have almost no role in propagating this privilege. Talk to any male in his mid 20's or younger and ask him how much of a leg up he's felt he had in finding a job versus female peers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    If you believe that men have "lost the privilege" described above, you live in a different world than I (a woman) do, particularly with regard to the rearing of children and the media representations and the expectations about appearance. It's better. Progress has been made, but this list is NOT outdated according to my lived experience.
    It's nice to have opinions.

    Stop thinking you're a victim and you might stop acting like one.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    That must be why the demographics of politics and the upper levels of business reflect the same percentages of men and women as the general population.
    Well maybe those people are from earlier generations where the gap was prevalent.

    Check entry level positions and do the same study.

  3. #123
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    The way you're speaking to Eileen right now ("you need to cut that shit out right now" "it's nice to have opinions" etc) is not helping your case. Unless you wanted to make the case that you can be extremely patronizing.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    There is just a shit-ton of misogyny and, as Orangey and Ivy (and probably others) have pointed out, a very fundamental misunderstanding of feminism in this thread.
    Are you saying there is a shit-ton of misogyny in this thread?

    I'm under no illusion that misogyny is gone, or can even be eradicated (and if you think it can be, you're nuts). I feel the same way about racism. The difference with misandry is that it is celebrated in the media.

    I've been told over and over about "real" feminism in this thread and the one about the "demise of guys", by Ivy and others. But I put as much weight into that as I do into the words of Muslims who claim Islam is a "peaceful religion" or the Christians who claim Christianity is about "tolerance" while the Westboro Baptist Church runs around doing its thing (not the best example, I know). I don't buy it. You're not going to sell me with words no matter how much you try because the media tells a COMPLETELY different story.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The way you're speaking to Eileen right now ("you need to cut that shit out right now" "it's nice to have opinions" etc) is not helping your case. Unless you wanted to make the case that you can be extremely patronizing.
    I'm usually a patient person.

    But this kind of mind blindness on the generational relationship to gender privilege is infuriating.

    Sure back in the day the system was set up for only a few to succeed.

    But now a days, when I look out my window, I see men struggling in exactly the same percentage I see women.

    The sins of years ago are not mine. Things have changed and gotten MUCH better for women, over the past 30 years things have relatively gotten worse for men.

    That's not to say that things are bad for men, just that relative to women (especially within the younger generations) things are pretty much balanced, and as far as getting a job is concerned... a little out of our favor.

  6. #126
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well maybe those people are from earlier generations where the gap was prevalent.

    Check entry level positions and do the same study.
    Earlier generations? Those positions are being decided on daily, as we speak. And yeah, they do typically go to older white men. Now. Today. Entry level positions are irrelevant because the point was that, of the people in positions of power, a huge majority of them are STILL men who STILL tend to promote other men. When business decisions are frequently made on golf courses at which female employees are not welcome, it's not a matter of being a victim. It's simply, pragmatically, a matter of being shut out. Acknowledging that is the opposite of being a victim- it's an attempt to fix the shit.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    But now a days, when I look out my window, I see men struggling in exactly the same percentage I see women.
    Everything is fine now, nothing to see here. We have achieved perfect balance...well, women still need a little more help.

    http://world.hawaiinewsdaily.com/201...american-male/

    Notice the date on that article. It wasn't written in 1972, or even 1992.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Earlier generations? Those positions are being decided on daily, as we speak. And yeah, they do typically go to older white men. Now. Today. Entry level positions are irrelevant because the point was that, of the people in positions of power, a huge majority of them are STILL men who STILL tend to promote other men. When business decisions are frequently made on golf courses at which female employees are not welcome, it's not a matter of being a victim. It's simply, pragmatically, a matter of being shut out. Acknowledging that is the opposite of being a victim- it's an attempt to fix the shit.
    And that is a privilege that won't be there for me, or those of my generation.

    If you want to get all in a huff about how corporate hiring practices at the very top are unrepresentative of the populace, that is your right.

    But that is a TINY fraction of the hiring that goes on all over the nation. By and large, there is nothing holding back my female classmates that isn't also holding me back.

    This is my problem with this whole privilege argument, the average guy doesn't have any of this privilege.

  9. #129
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Are you saying there is a shit-ton of misogyny in this thread?

    I'm under no illusion that misogyny is gone, or can even be eradicated (and if you think it can be, you're nuts). I feel the same way about racism. The difference with misandry is that it is celebrated in the media.

    I've been told over and over about "real" feminism in this thread and the one about the "demise of guys", by Ivy and others. But I put as much weight into that as I do into the words of Muslims who claim Islam is a "peaceful religion" or the Christians who claim Christianity is about "tolerance" while the Westboro Baptist Church runs around doing its thing (not the best example, I know). I don't buy it. You're not going to sell me with words no matter how much you try because the media tells a COMPLETELY different story.
    I don't believe I've made any claims about "true" feminism, because I don't believe there is such a thing. There are as many feminisms as there are feminists. I believe I stated that right upfront- there's no group, "FEMINISTS," that votes on stuff and agrees about everything. Your analogy to Christianity is actually pretty salient because, as a Christian, I do not approve of or stand behind every action made by any Christian. A lot of them are super shitty, yes. But I don't make claims about "true Christianity," because everybody gets to self-identify as whatever they want. It's not NECESSARILY their way, though. Other, more tolerant perspectives do exist. Same in feminism- you can hold up the well-known fringes (often well-known because they're hyped by the likes of Rush Limbaugh as representative of all of feminism) but it doesn't mean we all think that way.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't believe I've made any claims about "true" feminism, because I don't believe there is such a thing. There are as many feminisms as there are feminists. I believe I stated that right upfront- there's no group, "FEMINISTS," that votes on stuff and agrees about everything. Your analogy to Christianity is actually pretty salient because, as a Christian, I do not approve of or stand behind every action made by any Christian. A lot of them are super shitty, yes. But I don't make claims about "true Christianity," because everybody gets to self-identify as whatever they want. It's not NECESSARILY their way, though. Other, more tolerant perspectives do exist. Same in feminism- you can hold up the well-known fringes (often well-known because they're hyped by the likes of Rush Limbaugh as representative of all of feminism) but it doesn't mean we all think that way.
    These "fringe" groups you denounce have had a lot more influence than you and those who think like you. And no matter how many times you repeat this point, it doesn't change the practical reality. Your message is not heard. Other messages branded as "feminism" are and they are prevalent in the media. Public perception matters.

    Edit: Telling men (especially young men, today) who get upset about this about the evils of their fathers and grandfathers isn't productive. It only breeds contempt.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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