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  1. #111
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's a pretty good synopsis, and yes we do disagree on whether some of those are actually good or bad, and to what degree. I'm getting tired of debating this, so I'm not going to go through each of your points (sorry). One of the fundamental premises of social liberalism (and I consider myself to be socially liberal, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, etc) is that more choice is intrinsically good. Giving people more options to choose their own fate is a good thing. But there are some serious flaws that premise. I don't want to get into a debate on the issue of 'choice', either, because it's really a topic of its own. I'll just say that I believe we, as a society, seriously underestimate the significance of the animal/instinctual part of our brains. Everyone likes to think of themselves as rational, but we're all only partially rational.
    Agree with that. It's actually pretty funny how people tend to make decisions by rationalizing rather than reasoning. Although I'm not sure that's always a bad thing, really.
    There is only one reality show that I've ever watched that hasn't made change the channel in disgust, and that's the Dog Whisperer. If you haven't ever watched the show, it's about this guy (Cesar Milan) who goes around helping people who dogs with behavioral issues. He has two mottos. The first is "I rehabilitate dogs, I train humans". The second is "exercise, discipline, affection". Each case is obviously different, but the vast majority of cases are due to the humans putting too few limitations on the dogs, which paradoxically makes the dogs unhappy/stressed/etc. Most humans (mostly Americans on this show) tend to think that more choice is good and that discipline is "mean". But Cesar shows that the opposite is true. The dogs almost always need more discipline (especially the small ones that women tend to treat like baby humans), and this leads to them being able relax. Now I know human psychology is far more complex than dog psychology so I wouldn't go as far as saying you could apply this directly to humans, but as I said before, I think we tend to underestimate the significance of the animal part of our brains.
    Yeah, it's a pretty interesting show. I think there could easily be some parallels with raising children, although lacking both dogs and children I'm probably not qualified to comment.
    You can probably see where I'm going with this. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how we could implement a similar strategy into our society in any comprehensive fashion. But I do believe that eliminating no-fault divorce would have an effect on society that seems counter-intuitive to you.
    we can agree to disagree, I suppose.
    Did your parents both want divorce? If so, then there's really nothing to talk about here. I'm for divorces by mutual consent. I'm NOT for divorce being restricted by religion (I'm an atheist), so your parents would have been able to get a divorce under my proposal.
    I haven't actually asked them directly, since I'm not particularly close with either of them, but it's a fairly analogous situation - wanting to leave and not feeling able to, whether that restriction is from the law (as you propose), from religion (as often happens), or from a perception or reality of dependence (probably also a factor with my stay-at-home-mom). The details of how you prevent divorce are less important here than the outcome of forcing an unhappy relationship together.

    Anyway thanks for the chat
    -end of thread-

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Are you implying that there's a huge number of women who go around trying to get pregnant without the man's consent so a baby daddy can support them? There are probably a few out there, cause people do all sorts of crazy shit (see: Florida incident), but a substantial number of them?
    I had a girl try to do this to me.

  3. #113
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I had a girl try to do this to me.
    Sorry to hear that. People do all sorts of crazy shit.
    -end of thread-

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Sorry to hear that. People do all sorts of crazy shit.
    Yes they do.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    There is just a shit-ton of misogyny and, as Orangey and Ivy (and probably others) have pointed out, a very fundamental misunderstanding of feminism in this thread.

    It is interesting to consider the impact on women, though, of a narrowly-defined rape act that doesn't allow for "forced to penetrate" (or whatever the terminology was). I don't live in fear of rape, but I do take precautions when I'm by myself, particularly at night outside of my home or vehicle. I think that I am not alone--and I think I've been socialized this way. But I've been raped, too, and that's real. It's real that one in four women has experienced sexual assault. And it's real that women are a historically (and currently, more severely in some places than others, but in the US too) oppressed group.

    No, the conversation shouldn't forget about men or skew it such that we don't allow for the conversation about what the OVERARCHING CULTURAL STEREOTYPES of passivity in women and aggression in men do to us in terms of the rape conversation. It's also real that there are fucked up ideas about what men should/can be, and so despite the great privilege and advantage the presence of a penis on a body gives an individual, men suffer because of patriarchy too. That's a tenet of FEMINISM, right there. Cis men, you can thank FEMINISM for the acknowledgment of your deep humanity, because patriarchy sure doesn't do it.

    I follow a blog, and a few months ago, this was posted, and I like it. Here's the link.

    Men Get Raped Too- A response. (TW)

    stfusexists:

    This is an incredible piece of writing on the phenomenon that has become a meme of sorts, “What about teh menz?”. I really enjoyed this, instant follow.

    sexistculture:

    You know, I just checked back in on this post, and something about this last response rubbed me the wrong way. Not because I disagree with anything it said on its own, just because I think it ignored a very real problem in responding to reactions in feminist discourse and I think it missed the context on what it was responding to.


    Here’s the deal: Straight cis men do get raped. Straight cis men do get abused. Straight cis men do suffer lots of problems because of weird patriarchal notions of masculinity. You’d be hard pressed to find a feminist that disagrees with those ideas. But here’s the thing: it can’t and shouldn’t dominate the conversation when women or trans men or LGBTQ folks talk about the type of oppression that THEY face. And it does! All the time, and in ways that are totally irrelevant.

    When you read a post where a woman describes her rape trauma, and someone comes in and says “Well, men get raped too, what about the men?”, they’re not saying “We’re all potential victims of sexual assault, look at how awful this is, let’s examine it as one entity called “human” that is opposed to this type of behavior in all of its forms.” What they ARE saying is “STFU, woman. This isn’t just a woman problem, so you’re not allowed to talk about it in any terms that acknowledge your womaness, or gender as a factor at all. We don’t care that rape statistics show that women are much, much, more likely to be raped than straight cis men. We certainly don’t care that people with disabilities and trans people face even more severely heightened odds of being raped. We don’t care. Straight cis men get raped too. Therefore this is a non-story and you really shouldn’t be talking about it. Especially not in any context that we don’t agree with or approve of. Men get raped too, so your story is irrelevant.”

    That’s why “But what about the menz?” is a meme in feminist circles. It’s because we see that idea ALL THE GODDAMN TIME. If we talk about about anything related to harassment, anything related to how we experience the world on a day to day basis, some asshole will come in and say “Men could conceivably experience that too, YOUR ARGUMENT IS IRRELEVANT.” It’s a derailing tactic. A way of telling us to Shut The Fuck Up, and center the conversation around the people that matter: straight white cis guys.

    It’s a reminder that if we make the conversation about us and our own experiences, and we don’t go out of our way to acknowledge those straight, cis white guys… well, clearly it’s because WE are excluding THEM, and it has nothing to do with their inability to identify with us. Because they’re the default. So you can’t talk about human experience in female terms and have it not be automatically exclusionary to the guys that you are not talking about. Or the white people you’re not talking about if you’re discussing the experience of being a person of color. Or the straight people you’re not talking about if you’re talking about being gay.

    And as a feminist, let me say this: Guys, I understand that bad things happen to you. I understand that you experience rape, harassment, problems related to sexuality and your masculinity. I get that. When I talk about me? It’s not because I’m refusing to talk about you. You’re allowed in. Share your stories, but stop acting like there’s something wrong with me if I don’t talk about yours every single time I talk about mine. Tell us what happened to you and how it made you feel and why you feel that way. Sit down at the proverbial table with us, have a drink, and tell us what makes you sad about the world.

    But don’t you dare fucking interrupt me while you do it. This is a conversation, and in a polite conversation you have to listen and wait for your turn.
    Now, I think that it is important (and it is happening, but it should happen some more) that we do talk about abuse and rape that men suffer and how it connects to the culture of patriarchy. But the originally posted article is an example of one that tries to silence women from talking about gender and rape (yes, I acknowledge that a woman wrote it. Chalk it up to internalized oppression) rather than creating the space for meaningful conversation about definitions of rape and gender. It suggests that women are "manufacturing victimhood" instead of opening up a space for how patriarchal attitudes about gender hurt us all with regard to the reality of sexual assault/rape/forced sex.



    I should start a new post to address this comment by Lateralus, but I am ... lazy? (that's actually not right--I'm busy, and I need to hurry up and get to my day's work).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Women have 100% control over their reproductive ability thanks to technological advances, but don't take 100% responsibility when an unwanted child is born.
    Rest assured I--and every woman I have the intimacy with to know what she's doing with her reproductive life--take control over my reproductive life. If I don't, I am extremely vulnerable to losing my financial security, my independence, and the like. But the notion that because I'm on the pill and use good judgment when I have sex with someone (having and taking my control), I am suddenly the ONLY PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR AN UNWANTED CHILD should the measures I take *fail* (which happens from time to time) when it definitely takes two to tango (and by tango, I mean engage in sexual intercourse) is the *whole fucking problem* in the conversation about reproductive rights.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    It's also real that there are fucked up ideas about what men should/can be, and so despite the great privilege and advantage the presence of a penis on a body gives an individual, men suffer because of patriarchy too. That's a tenet of FEMINISM, right there.
    You need to cut that shit out right now.

    Being born with a penis has given me (and pretty much any man from gen. Y onward) literally no advantage over my female classmates.

    Except a much greater level of upper body strength that is.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Note--somehow Lateralus's post was quoted here rather than DiscoBiscuit's. Sorry. I fixed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit
    You need to cut that shit out right now.

    Being born with a penis has given me (and pretty much any man from gen. Y onward) literally no advantage over my female classmates.

    Except a much greater level of upper body strength that is.
    Ahh, a privilege-denier! Here's another excerpt from a blog post, which I have corrected in light of the statistics presented in this thread. It is problematic because it relies on the definitions of rape and abuse that are called into question here, and we should talk about that.

    Please note that acknowledging a group's privilege DOES NOT MEAN that crappy stuff does not happen to individuals.

    The Male Privilege Checklist

    1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

    2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).

    3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

    4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

    5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

    6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

    7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

    8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

    9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

    10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

    11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

    12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

    13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

    14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

    15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

    16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

    17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

    18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

    19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

    20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

    21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

    22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

    23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

    24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

    25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability. (More).

    26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

    27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

    28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

    29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

    30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

    31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

    32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

    33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

    34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

    35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

    36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

    37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

    38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

    39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

    40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

    41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

    42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

    43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

    44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

    45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment. (More.)

    45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

    46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #118
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    Ahh! a privilege acceptor.

    One who despite changing cultural norms and gender relations holds onto outmoded views of the power balance that while applicable in the past, currently only serve to benefit women despite their already rising lot in the culture relative to men.

    Who have over the past 20 - 30 years lost have almost all of the privilege mentioned above.

  9. #119
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    That must be why the demographics of politics and the upper levels of business reflect the same percentages of men and women as the general population.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    If you believe that men have "lost the privilege" described above, you live in a different world than I (a woman) do, particularly with regard to the rearing of children and the media representations and the expectations about appearance. It's better. Progress has been made, but this list is NOT outdated according to my lived experience.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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