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  1. #81
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I guess I'd liken it to starcraft. People would ask for quarter, to which i gave them none.
    Fair enough, but StarCraft is a video game. War involves actual people who kill actual other people, and have to actually experience this, and the emotional consequences.

    To put it another way, no one in StarCraft has ever died from being bludgeoned by their buddy's disembodied head, after a HE shell exploded 10 ft in front of him.

  2. #82
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This was a significant part of the motivation. There was already tension with the USSR when the war in Europe was concluding, and some Allied commanders talked about marching right through Germany to take on the Soviets, while they were still weakened by their heavy losses in the war. The USSR had taken control of eastern Europe by the summer of 1945, and actual demonstration of an atomic bomb was a good way to for the U.S. to flex its muscles. Stalin already knew of the existence of the bomb thanks to Soviet spies, but no one had seen its effect on a real target.
    Indeed. We had to show our former ally that we were now the superior power -- some historians point to the atomic bomb as the advent of the US as a global superpower, as our influence could legitimately be expressed wherever we wished, with a weapon that monumentally trumped anything human hands had ever touched..

    My point was that this was not the only governing thought when we decided to drop our atomic payloads on Japan. I put this as a sort-of challenge to Onemoretime to cite historical data outside the context of the soon-to-be 'space race' rhetoric that continued until the late 1980's. To his credit, he offered multiple alternatives as to why we declined peace in favor of atomic holocaust.

    I do not share his stance, but was nonetheless impressed by it.

  3. #83
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    My point was that this was not the only governing thought when we decided to drop our atomic payloads on Japan. I put this as a sort-of challenge to Onemoretime to cite historical data outside the context of the soon-to-be 'space race' rhetoric that continued until the late 1980's. To his credit, he offered multiple alternatives as to why we declined peace in favor of atomic holocaust.

    I do not share his stance, but was nonetheless impressed by it.
    Sorry I did not get a chance to respond to your initial post, Night. As I basically share my opinion on this topic with onemoretime, and his responses to you are along the lines of what I would have said anyway (probably less articulately, to be sure), I see no need to provide a repeat performance.

    I will add this, though, as I think it's an interesting source of information: The Decision To Use The Atomic Bomb - Gar Alperovitz And The H-Net Debate.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #84
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    It's fascinating to read the perspectives of the mid-century conservatives, who were already being smeared as "isolationists" for having an anti-imperialist stance. Those conservatives don't have any sort of power anymore, having been driven off by the neocons and the corporatists/fascists/neofeudalists, with the help of the Religious Right.

  5. #85
    I'm not Trunks
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    I like to learn history and geography at school, but i like Geography more which included galaxy. i learn about Nagasaki and Hiroshima at highschool and i find them are interesting subject. but not really got high score at it.

  6. #86
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I will add this, though, as I think it's an interesting source of information: The Decision To Use The Atomic Bomb - Gar Alperovitz And The H-Net Debate.
    Meanwhile, here's a short article that lists scholarly rebuttals of Alperovitz and other revisionists, for anyone who's interested: http://www.theamericanpresident.us/i...ruman_bomb.pdf

  7. #87
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    No, because the United States mainland lay 5,000 miles across the ocean, and Japan had no capability of sending an attacking force that distance, or any distance for that matter. Which means that, if American soldiers ended up having to do such a thing, it was because American war command had decided unilaterally to send its soldiers into this mess. In July of 1945, Japan did not constitute an aggressive threat to anyone, as even its forces in China were running out of materiel and support capabilities.

    Japan did not want to surrender, and there was no need for it to surrender. There could have easily been an armistice drawn that did not declare a winner or loser, and a treaty created that granted favorable terms to the Allies, securely ending the war. This did not happen because the US, in particular, wanted to force Japan into an unconditional surrender, maximizing its gains in the war at the further expense of Japan. It was purely out of aggression on the part of the US.
    That's just the "America is always wrong" meme. I've seen it on the internet many, many times.

    America can't make an armistice where no efforts are being put forth by the other party. The historical record clearly indicates that Japan intended to continue the fight. When I say "Japan" I'm not talking about the third lieutenant who wants to give up and quit fighting. Japan had to be forced down because of its fanatical devotion toward its emperor.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #88
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The problem I have with Western civilization is in its essentially predatory character, and the lack of effective checks placed upon it. If a society outside of Western civilization has something that the power elite of the West want, and is unwilling to sell it to them, they will do whatever it takes, up to and including the destruction of that society, in order to obtain it. Practically nothing short of a nuclear arsenal will stop them, and as we see in the case of Pakistan, sometimes that doesn't even work.
    18th and 19th century European colonialism and expansionism ended around mid 20th century when the British were kicked out of India and the French were kicked out of Vietnam. So the phenonemon you're talking about didn't even take place during our lifetimes. Do you feel guilty for the sins of our grandfathers? I lack this sense of being part of a larger community that did something a long time ago that I, for some reason, now have to live down. It's just not objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And as much as I like skyscrapers, what if those people are perfectly happy with their mud huts?
    Such areas of the world have also been predatory in nature, sometimes even cannibalistic. I personally am grateful that I don't live somewhere that practices human sacrifice, or that burns people at the stake. Some efforts were made to bring more civilized practices to such cultures based on the idea that there is a Christian God, even if those practices had to be forced on them. It was believed that people in those cultures were going straight to Hell when they die, and that it was a Christian duty to save them. So obviously there was more to it than stealing their natural resources, and that other motives applied which were supposedly more of a benevolent nature. There was an issue regarding the religious ends justifying the means used to attain them in places such as Africa.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #89
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #90
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Meanwhile, here's a short article that lists scholarly rebuttals of Alperovitz and other revisionists, for anyone who's interested: http://www.theamericanpresident.us/i...ruman_bomb.pdf
    The only way to convince anybody that Truman was right is to go back in time and cause him to make a different decision. But why would he? Truman did not know the power of a nuclear device. His intention was to nuke only military targets and their personnel. But this would only have been possible far out at sea against naval targets, where no collateral damage is possible. Truman however did not know this because the technology was so new.

    But let's engage in fruitless fantasy and postulate that Truman decided not to drop the bomb. Let's say that he decided to invade the Japanese homeland. It was thought that the Japanese people - men, women, and children - would have attacked the Allies on the beaches with every weapon available to them. If true, the results would have been just as morally devastating.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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