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  1. #61
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sure. Tens of millions of people died in the most awful of ways, and for no real purpose. It was just an excuse for killing on a cataclysmic scale.
    Now imagine that no people died. No atomic bombs, no conventional bombing of cities and no invasion. Perhaps not even a war. Now imagine if all those people had survived and reproduced, and their children reproduced, and so forth. What would be the world population now?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #62
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The option was kept "privately" by Japan. They "were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese."
    And, as explained further down, there were officials within the Japanese government who had been sending indications of a desire to negotiate through British and American channels for quite some time, even prior to the Yalta Conference. While these were not made public, it is the extremely rare situation where the public is availed of war plans before they are executed.

  3. #63
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I can't think of anyone who wouldn't prefer peace over atomic fire, so that's kind of...well, academic. Heh.
    Yes. This.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  4. #64
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And, as explained further down, there were officials within the Japanese government who had been sending indications of a desire to negotiate through British and American channels for quite some time, even prior to the Yalta Conference. While these were not made public, it is the extremely rare situation where the public is availed of war plans before they are executed.
    Nope.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #65
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    At least we're not the only primate species that commits atrocities.
    To be honest, this isn't a particularly endearing thought.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  6. #66
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Now imagine that no people died. No atomic bombs, no conventional bombing of cities and no invasion. Perhaps not even a war. Now imagine if all those people had survived and reproduced, and their children reproduced, and so forth. What would be the world population now?
    Probably not much different than it is. Even at the highest estimates of death tolls, the war killed 80 million of a pre-war population of 2300 million. These deaths were also disproportionately men, which leaves less of an impact on global fertility rates. Furthermore, the countries that had the greatest proportion (>10%) of their population killed generally did not experience the rapid population growth that defined the second half of the 20th Century.

  7. #67
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    My point is that the US had complete power over the situation. Japan had been defeated in fact if not politically, and either the atomic bombings or the invasion campaign would have constituted the unilateral and unnecessary slaughter of innocent Japanese. The only means by which it doesn't is if you accept the American framing of the situation, which presupposes that further aggression on the part of the US was inevitable, necessary, even normative or deserved.
    So, by implication, you're suggesting the US exercised atomic power over peace talks? Doesn't that seem...well, improbably monstrous? Having the capacity to accept peaceful surrender, but instead opting to drop back-to-back ultra weapons, instantly kill tens of thousands while irradiating everything for decades to come...

    What would be their motivation? I don't believe their purpose was to solidify technological showmanship over Russia. Why, then?


    I mean, I'm open to possibility here, but you're offering a position wherein US senior leadership consciously choose unfathomable devastation over...well, over peace -- and in doing so, effectively committed one of the most barbaric choices in human history (if in fact it was within their capacity to avoid).

    That's a momentous charge. Nuclear holocaust..comparable to Hitler, OMT.

    I'm interested to hear your rationale.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And, as explained further down, there were officials within the Japanese government who had been sending indications of a desire to negotiate through British and American channels for quite some time, even prior to the Yalta Conference. While these were not made public, it is the extremely rare situation where the public is availed of war plans before they are executed.
    Let's discuss things that matter, not whether the 3rd officer in charge of the mess tent wanted to create a peace agreement.

    "However, the senior leadership of the Japanese Army took the news [about Nagasaki] in stride, grossly underestimating the scale of the attack. With the support of Minister of War Anami, they started preparing to impose martial law on the nation, to stop anyone attempting to make peace."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #69
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    The greatest moral dilemma concerning the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was the alternative option of continuing a full scale war. The problem here, is that the dilemma is not entirely clear-cut, rather one option is immediately certain, or at least more certain than the other (the other being very uncertain). Had we chosen to continue the war the old fashion way there's no precise knowing of how much longer it would have lasted, and how much more accumulative damage would have been done. For all anyone knew then, prolonged war might have lasted to the point where both sides lost more lives and experienced greater destruction than what the nukes caused. So the option boiled down to this; kill some now and end war know (high probability of success), or; continue war and possibly lose more lives in total later (high probability of greater death toll, unclear probability concerning other circumstances). Take into account that this is a war, where every decision makes the difference between peaceful negotiations and bloody massacre. The only reasonable courses of action are those that can be approached rationally, made in effort of preserving the greater good, and end the war sooner as opposed to later.

    Concerning another matter; it was during this time that the U.S. may not have had another chance to launch nuclear bombs on cities once the war did inevitably end. Had the U.S. not bombed the cities and the war did end earlier than expected, the opportunity to flex the arms of our new military might would no longer be available. So perhaps the U.S. did want to launch the bombs with full intent of showcasing it to the world, as well as possible knowledge of Japan's coming surrender. It was simply on opportunity to demonstrate to the rest of the world, "Hey, we got nukes, and we ain't 'fraid to use 'em!". Granted once Russia got their hands on nukes is led to the cold war, but people can't always predict with high precision the exact consequences of their actions; one can merely estimate and know from past practices and recurring trends.

  10. #70
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    The greatest moral dilemma concerning the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was the alternative option of continuing a full scale war. The problem here, is that the dilemma is not entirely clear-cut, rather one option is immediately certain, or at least more certain than the other (the other being very uncertain). Had we chosen to continue the war the old fashion way there's no precise knowing of how much longer it would have lasted, and how much more accumulative damage would have been done. For all anyone knew then, prolonged war might have lasted to the point where both sides lost more lives and experienced greater destruction than what the nukes caused. So the option boiled down to this; kill some now and end war know (high probability of success), or; continue war and possibly lose more lives in total later (high probability of greater death toll, unclear probability concerning other circumstances). Take into account that this is a war, where every decision makes the difference between peaceful negotiations and bloody massacre. The only reasonable courses of action are those that can be approached rationally, made in effort of preserving the greater good, and end the war sooner as opposed to later.

    Concerning another matter; it was during this time that the U.S. may not have had another chance to launch nuclear bombs on cities once the war did inevitably end. Had the U.S. not bombed the cities and the war did end earlier than expected, the opportunity to flex the arms of our new military might would no longer be available. So perhaps the U.S. did want to launch the bombs with full intent of showcasing it to the world, as well as possible knowledge of Japan's coming surrender. It was simply on opportunity to demonstrate to the rest of the world, "Hey, we got nukes, and we ain't 'fraid to use 'em!". Granted once Russia got their hands on nukes is led to the cold war, but people can't always predict with high precision the exact consequences of their actions; one can merely estimate and know from past practices and recurring trends.

    There was a third possibility, we used all our nukes and they still wanted to cut our guts out ;P

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