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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Does it matter, when there was an option for a negotiated peace?
    Was that really an option?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Does it matter, when there was an option for a negotiated peace?
    Sure, as the scenario calls for an approximation in terms to adequately compare potential for human suffering. This thread is an exercise in weighing the value of wartime choices; I can't think of anyone who wouldn't prefer peace over atomic fire, so that's kind of...well, academic. Heh.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    How do you feel about the bombing of those two cities?

    I've just gotten done reading a book detailing some first hand accounts, it was an interesting read.
    I've got that book, havent read it yet. I imagine its a harrowing read from the blurb on the back.

    I've watched Grave of The Fireflies and When The Wind Blows. Very, very sad both of them.

    There's really terrible things about the end of the second world war which are only just really coming to light now or rather are being written about and fully acknowledged now. For instance the extent of the numbers of German prisoners of war, many of which at the end of the war were the oldest and youngest conscripts of German society, which disappeared without a trace or the extent of organised cannibalism among the Japanese armed forces before surrender.

    I dont think there's any good way to fight a war, the trauma which the triumph of even the lesser of two evils can create can have real consequences for generations and generations afterwards.

  4. #54
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Was that really an option?
    Yes. After Okinawa, Japan was completely cut off from its supply lines, its manufacturing capacity was almost entirely obliterated, its navy had no means of projecting power, and its two major allies had already been defeated. Not only would they have sat down at the negotiating table, they already had plans to do so.

    They would have most likely acceded to an armistice that did not declare a winner or loser. It most likely would have also involved the renunciation of claims on the Asian mainland, if only because they didn't have the military capacity to hold those claims any longer. It would not have likely permitted the occupation, though I can imagine that there would be an American presence in the "rebuilding" process. There probably would not have been any trials of war criminals, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Sure, as the scenario calls for an approximation in terms to adequately compare potential for human suffering. This thread is an exercise in weighing the value of wartime choices; I can't think of anyone who wouldn't prefer peace over atomic fire, so that's kind of...well, academic. Heh.
    My point is that the US had complete power over the situation. Japan had been defeated in fact if not politically, and either the atomic bombings or the invasion campaign would have constituted the unilateral and unnecessary slaughter of innocent Japanese. The only means by which it doesn't is if you accept the American framing of the situation, which presupposes that further aggression on the part of the US was inevitable, necessary, even normative or deserved.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes. After Okinawa, Japan was completely cut off from its supply lines, its manufacturing capacity was almost entirely obliterated, its navy had no means of projecting power, and its two major allies had already been defeated. Not only would they have sat down at the negotiating table, they already had plans to do so.
    Where are you getting this from?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Where are you getting this from?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

    Lots of information there, but the good stuff is in the footnotes.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

    Lots of information there, but the good stuff is in the footnotes.
    Or this at the very top of the page:

    'While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, the Empire of Japan's leaders, (the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, also known as the "Big Six"), were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese. The Soviets, meanwhile, were preparing to attack the Japanese, in fulfillment of their promises to the United States and the United Kingdom made at the Tehran and Yalta Conferences.'
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #58
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Or this at the very top of the page:

    'While publicly stating their intent to fight on to the bitter end, the Empire of Japan's leaders, (the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War, also known as the "Big Six"), were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese. The Soviets, meanwhile, were preparing to attack the Japanese, in fulfillment of their promises to the United States and the United Kingdom made at the Tehran and Yalta Conferences.'
    Right - ultimately, there would be no negotiated peace because the Allies had decided that it would be so. The option was still there.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Right - ultimately, there would be no negotiated peace because the Allies had decided that it would be so. The option was still there.
    The option was kept "privately" by Japan. They "were privately making entreaties to the neutral Soviet Union to mediate peace on terms favorable to the Japanese."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, at best it was a reason - not a particularly good one, IMO - and at worst a lie employed for propaganda purposes.
    Actually, at best, it was an undeniably sound reason that justifies our decisions.

    That you would form your construction the way that you did is little more than a sign of your pre-established bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Everyone becomes such a lazy moral reasoner when it comes to this topic. Or should I perhaps say motivated reasoner?
    Or perhaps you should offer an actual argument that proves the above to be true, not just a highly subjective value judgment.

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