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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's just the "America is always wrong" meme. I've seen it on the internet many, many times.

    America can't make an armistice where no efforts are being put forth by the other party. The historical record clearly indicates that Japan intended to continue the fight. When I say "Japan" I'm not talking about the third lieutenant who wants to give up and quit fighting. Japan had to be forced down because of its fanatical devotion toward its emperor.
    You've been presented with plenty of evidence that this was simply not the case. I can't force you to accept facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    18th and 19th century European colonialism and expansionism ended around mid 20th century when the British were kicked out of India and the French were kicked out of Vietnam. So the phenonemon you're talking about didn't even take place during our lifetimes. Do you feel guilty for the sins of our grandfathers? I lack this sense of being part of a larger community that did something a long time ago that I, for some reason, now have to live down. It's just not objective.
    I'd take you seriously here if there weren't thousands of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan at this very moment.

    Such areas of the world have also been predatory in nature, sometimes even cannibalistic. I personally am grateful that I don't live somewhere that practices human sacrifice, or that burns people at the stake. Some efforts were made to bring more civilized practices to such cultures based on the idea that there is a Christian God, even if those practices had to be forced on them. It was believed that people in those cultures were going straight to Hell when they die, and that it was a Christian duty to save them. So obviously there was more to it than stealing their natural resources, and that other motives applied which were supposedly more of a benevolent nature. There was an issue regarding the religious ends justifying the means used to attain them in places such as Africa.
    Funny, that's just what abusers say to their victims - "you made me do this" "I'm doing this for your own good" "if you weren't so rotten, I wouldn't have to hit you"

  2. #92
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You've been presented with plenty of evidence that this was simply not the case. I can't force you to accept facts.
    I have facts too. But those aren't the kind that someone just makes up.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'd take you seriously here if there weren't thousands of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan at this very moment.
    Now you're just finding an excuse to open a new can of worms.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Funny, that's just what abusers say to their victims - "you made me do this" "I'm doing this for your own good" "if you weren't so rotten, I wouldn't have to hit you"
    I'm not making excuses for anybody. I'm saying that there are other reasons beyond the ones that you choose to give by focusing very selectively on certain facts. But the facts also indicate that other areas of the world practice sadistic rituals, torture, and cannibalism.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #93
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    http://www.theamericanpresident.us/i...ruman_bomb.pdf

    'The debate over the use of the atomic bomb against Japan dates from August
    1945. Truman’s first critics spoke out after the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even
    before Japan formally surrendered on September 2, arguing mainly on the basis of
    pacifist or religious principles.

    ' A different type of argument emerged in mid-1946 in the
    Saturday Review of Literature, where Norman Cousins and Thomas K. Finletter accused
    the United States of using atomic weapons against Japan as a diplomatic tool to limit
    Soviet influence in East Asia, not as a military weapon to end the war. Thus, in a
    chronological sense, Hiroshima “revisionism” actually debuted before “orthodoxy.”'
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #94
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    Beyond the need to end the war with Japan, there were some very important foreign policy reasons to drop the bombs.

    Without the use of those weapons at the end of WWII the power dynamics of the Cold War may have ended up looking very different.

  5. #95
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Beyond the need to end the war with Japan, there were some very important foreign policy reasons to drop the bombs.

    Without the use of those weapons at the end of WWII the power dynamics of the Cold War may have ended up looking very different.
    True. The issue is whether this was worth the completely preventable death of tens of thousands of innocents, and maiming of thousands more. In my opinion, it was not.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    True. The issue is whether this was worth the completely preventable death of tens of thousands of innocents, and maiming of thousands more. In my opinion, it was not.
    There were also very important foreign policy reasons that forced us to continue the war until Japan surrendered.

    They bombed sovereign soil, unprovoked, and hurt (if temporarily) our naval capacity in the pacific.

    If we let that stand without defeating them, we would have been seen as weak internationally. This would have been even worse than not dropping the bombs.

    The repercussions of choosing not to force a Japanese surrender would have had DRASTIC foreign policy implications for the second half of the 20th century.

    We would not have come out of the Yalta Conference nearly as strong as we did.

    Dropping the bombs, and taking the fight to Japan was a big part of US hegemony in the second half of the 20th century.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    There were also very important foreign policy reasons that forced us to continue the war until Japan surrendered.

    They bombed sovereign soil, unprovoked, and hurt (if temporarily) our naval capacity in the pacific.

    If we let that stand without defeating them, we would have been seen as weak internationally. This would have been even worse than not dropping the bombs.

    The repercussions of choosing not to force a Japanese surrender would have had DRASTIC foreign policy implications for the second half of the 20th century.

    We would not have come out of the Yalta Conference nearly as strong as we did.

    Dropping the bombs, and taking the fight to Japan was a big part of US hegemony in the second half of the 20th century.
    That's the thing - I don't think US hegemony in the late 20th Century was a good thing, as it led to the establishment of the military-industrial complex, the perpetual war economy, and our massive "defense" budget.

    I also do not think that saving face in the eyes of the international community was worth the gravity of the bombings. Regardless of what any other country thought, the US was the only country with the production and personnel capacity to keep up the war unassisted. Everyone else was spent. Pearl Harbor had already been repaid many times over with the conventional and firebombing raids on the Japanese home islands.

    Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor without provocation.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    How do you feel about the bombing of those two cities?
    Vile, monstrous, inhumane, unnecessary.. just like the strategic bombing campaign over cities in Germany (i.e. Dresden).

    Japan had no armada left. Its main railroads and weapon/armament manufacturing facilities were all smashed by the American bombing raids for the past several months. Tens of thousands of innocent civilians were already incinerated in them and many more were left homeless.

    America had already won the war. Okinawa was taken.

    It was a diversionary attempt to avoid a mainland invasion of Japan which would have resulted in one million American casualties out of the five million planned for the operation, estimates put it, because the whole Japanese civilian population was ordered by its military to attack the enemy.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's the thing - I don't think US hegemony in the late 20th Century was a good thing, as it led to the establishment of the military-industrial complex, the perpetual war economy, and our massive "defense" budget.

    I also do not think that saving face in the eyes of the international community was worth the gravity of the bombings. Regardless of what any other country thought, the US was the only country with the production and personnel capacity to keep up the war unassisted. Everyone else was spent. Pearl Harbor had already been repaid many times over with the conventional and firebombing raids on the Japanese home islands.

    Furthermore, I disagree with your assessment that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor without provocation.
    There is a little bit of a difference between an oil embargo and bombing a strategically important naval installation.

    That's like saying it's ok punch someone in the face who cut in line at the DMV. (although an oil embargo is of larger importance than cutting in line, it's still nowhere near bombing a navy base)

    Also, Japan had allied itself with a fairly antagonistic regime that kind of tried to wipe Jews off the map.

    As to the rest of your point, this is where your heart bleeds and mine does not. I appreciate your candor, and the sentiments behind it, but I am much more comfortable with the US playing the role it did in the 20th century than I would be with Russia playing that role.

    Of course this is all hypothetical given what ifs and whatnot. But I think things turned out pretty well for the world over the last 62 years.

    Most importantly, I think things went much better than they could have had things played out differently in WWII.

    As always everyone is entitled to their views, and this is one of the points where ours differ.

  10. #100
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    There is a little bit of a difference between an oil embargo and bombing a strategically important naval installation.

    That's like saying it's ok punch someone in the face who cut in line at the DMV. (although an oil embargo is of larger importance than cutting in ling, it's still nowhere near bombing a navy base)
    An embargo is still an act of war by international law. Given Japan's status as an importer nation, and that both the US and Japan had war plans for this exact situation, both sides knew exactly what they were getting themselves into.

    Also, Japan had allied itself with a fairly antagonistic regime that kind of tried to wipe Jews off the map.
    That has no bearing on the Pacific War, particularly when it was not a motivation for the Allies in Europe.

    As to the rest of your point, this is where your heart bleeds and mine does not. I appreciate your candor, and the sentiments behind it, but I am much more comfortable with the US playing the role it did in the 20th century than I would be with Russia playing that role.
    Yet you talk about your disgust with the corporate takeover of American politics. Do you fail to see that the perpetual war state is one of the primary contributors to this process? That defense and its ancillary industries receive the largest direct transfers of public wealth?

    Of course this is all hypothetical given what ifs and whatnot. But I think things turned out pretty well for the world over the last 62 years.

    Most importantly, I think things went much better than they could have had things played out differently in WWII.

    As always everyone is entitled to their views, and this is one of the points where ours differ.
    I'm not concerned with alternative history. I'm concerned with what this process has done to the soul of our country. And there are a lot of reasonable people around the world who would disagree with you wholeheartedly.

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