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  1. #11
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    i see only 41 percent want the law repealed. not most.

    i am not and will never be a political analyst, so i'll pick and choose what information i gather as i will
    I was referring to the individual mandate, which 68% want overturned.

    Okay.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I was referring to the individual mandate, which 68% want overturned.

    Okay.

    okay, look, my post was ignorant. but the point i'm trying to make is that not all those people didn't want it right away... it took a lot of social pressure to get to that point. most people, i promise you, are in favor of a simplified health care plan.

    anyways, i made steak and eggs. have a good night.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Two reasons:

    1.) Obviously, most of us hate Obamacare, making opposition to this particular law a political priority.

    2.) The implications of this law are far more profound than most; like I said, if the Commerce Clause is interpreted to allow the individual mandate, then it basically allows the federal government to do virtually anything, completely nullifying the Tenth Amendment (which is already on life support after several previous expansive interpretations of the Commerce Clause). I, for one, would even rather have single-payer healthcare than completely lose the Tenth Amendment as a check on federal power.

    In short, its a mixture of opportunism and principle, just like any other major Constitutional issue that has ever been hotly debated.
    Obviously, this is what I already believed about Republicans. They only pay attention when Democrats expand the power of the federal government. They turn a blind eye to Republicans expanding that power (Medicare Part D, the Patriot Act, etc).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The Constitutionality of a lot of things is a 'foregone conclusion' until people are actually forced to think about it....do you believe the Commerce Clause grants the federal government virtually unlimited authority to control the economic actions (and even more to the point, inactions) of American citizens? That's the crux of the issue, and why 'living Constitution' enthusiasts were caught so flat-footed that they couldn't even come up with a decent Constitutional argument in support of Obamacare, instead focusing on extra-Constitutional issues regarding the importance or specialness of the healthcare industry.
    Why didn't Republicans care about that when they first crafted the individual mandate legislation two decades ago? That's the reason behind the article, not the actual merits of the law, but the reasons why parties and supporters of the parties believe what they believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Obviously, this is what I already believed about Republicans. They only pay attention when Democrats expand the power of the federal government. They turn a blind eye to Republicans expanding that power (Medicare Part D, the Patriot Act, etc).
    Yes, that's what I'm trying to point out. If George Bush had proposed BushCare with an individual mandate instead of Medicare Part D it would enjoy widespread Republican support and Democrats would at best grudgingly support it while complaining that we need nationalized health care.

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Why didn't Republicans care about that when they first crafted the individual mandate legislation two decades ago? .
    I suspect they did not realize the implications; individual mandates are practical in terms of specific health insurance goals, and the unforeseen consequences were just that, .

    I don't disagree about the groupthink point (look at the Truthers and the Birthers, two movements motivated by emotional opposition to sitting Presidents rather than rational thinking), I was only adressing the implication that Constitutional objections to the individual mandate are illegitimate.

  6. #16
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Who cares about constitutionality, anyway? The people in charge clearly don't, and the Constitution can be interpreted to say anything you want to, even using its plain language. Thank you English, and all your shades of meaning.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Who cares about constitutionality, anyway? The people in charge clearly don't, and the Constitution can be interpreted to say anything you want to, even using its plain language. Thank you English, and all your shades of meaning.
    Even the Devil can quote the Bible to suit his needs.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Even the Devil can quote the Bible to suit his needs.
    His Bible is in English.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Even the Devil can quote the Bible to suit his needs.
    Well for that matter... Anyone can quite the Bible to suit their needs.....AND ignore the parts of it that don't fit their needs... If people are going to use the Bible as their reasoning for why something is wrong, they can't exclude the parts of it that don't fit into their lifestyle as well.


  10. #20
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    So instead of thinking and deciding the issues on the merits, political parties lead their members to think the party's stance on an issue is meritorious, rather than simply political gamesmanship. The media helps:
    This is a really valuable article. I think sometimes people allow the convenience of identifying with a political party prevent myriad opportunities to strengthen critcal thinking - particularly on flavor-of-the-day powderkeg issues (your Obamacare example is spot-on). It almost becomes a romantic ideal; the participant willfully surrenders a portion of his intellectual freedom in exchange for party identification and group support on seemingly complex / murky social concerns. If nothing else, groupthink is a faster way to find closure.

    This obviously cuts both ways and through different mediums. Democratic idealists who rely on quasi-political discussion from Jon Stewart or Stephen Colbert. Hard-nosed 'publicans who look to Rush Limbaugh's incendiary jibber-jabber as honest political analysis. The Huffington Post. The National Review.

    I guess it makes sense on some level; controversial opinion can be a lonely apparatus. Less scary when others chant as you do. Plus, there's a lot of information out there. Hard to immediately differentiate which side provides conformity with one's philosophical foundations. In that way, groupthink becomes a 'clarifying' alternative for what is often an intellectually impractical socio-political sea to navigate.

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