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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Here, you know who's good for quotes, Roosevelt. He the man.
    Theodore or Franklin? What would be the relevant quote?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #82
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing what was especially "fascinating" about that woman's ranting. Apparently, according to her superior wisdom, the reason that men are reluctant to enter into marriage these days is because women are increasingly ugly, entitled, and selfish, and that's largely due to evil feminazi propoganda. How thought provoking and new...did she get her opinions from Dr. Laura?

    In general I'm inclined to agree with @Rail Tracer. I am just as sick of nostalgia for lost ideas of "manhood" and fear-based prognostications of the downfall of mankind as I am of the mourning for mythical "femininity." It's all part and parcel to the same sexist bullshit that feminists have been calling out for ages. Only now, ignorant folks like that woman in the video like to conflate feminism with the whole "there aren't any good men left" crowd (in fact, she says this explicitly at one point) when in fact it's the lost-manhood-nostalgia crowd who are anti-feminist (whether they choose to blame men or women...it's retarded either way.) Goddamn, I hate retrograde thinking.

    Entitled, have-it-both-ways behavior on the part of women is, of course, to be deplored. It is NOT, however, to be blamed on feminism, though certain watered-down strains of what is passed off as feminism on, say, Oprah are not helpful to this perpetual gender bickering and blaming. I'll post yet another passage from The Second Sex because apparently she was such a fucking genius that the shit she said more than a half-century ago is still relevant.

    In so far as she expresses herself in definite action, this claim is legitimate, and male insolence must then bear the blame. But in men’s defence it must be said that women are wont to confuse the issue. Many women, in order to show by their successes their equivalence to men, try to secure male support by sexual means; they play on both sides, demanding old-fashioned respect and modern esteem, banking on their old magic and their new rights. It is understandable that a man becomes irritated and puts himself on the defensive; but he is also double-dealing when he requires woman to play the game fairly while he denies her the indispensable trump cards through distrust and hostility. Indeed, the struggle cannot be clearly drawn between them, since woman is opaque in her very being; she stands before man not as a subject but as an object paradoxically endued with subjectivity; she takes herself simultaneously as self and as other, a contradiction that entails baffling consequences. When she makes weapons at once of her weakness and of her strength, it is not a matter of designing calculation: she seeks salvation spontaneously in the way that has been imposed on her, that of passivity, at the same time when she is actively demanding her sovereignty; and no doubt this procedure is unfair tactics, but it is dictated by the ambiguous situation assigned her. Man, however, becomes indignant when he treats her as a free and independent being and then realises that she is still a trap for him; if he gratifies and satisfies her in her posture as prey, he finds her claims to autonomy irritating; whatever he does, he feels tricked and she feels wronged.

    The quarrel will go on as long as men and women fail to recognise each other as equals; that is to say, as long as femininity is perpetuated as such. Which sex is the more eager to maintain it? Woman, who is being emancipated from it, wishes none the less to retain its privileges; and man, in that case, wants her to assume its limitations. ‘It is easier to accuse one sex than to excuse the other,’ says Montaigne. It is vain to apportion praise and blame. The truth is that if the vicious circle is so hard to break, it is because the two sexes are each the victim at once of the other and of itself. Between two adversaries confronting each other in their pure liberty, an agreement could be easily reached: the more so as the war profits neither. But the complexity of the whole affair derives from the fact that each camp is giving aid and comfort to the enemy; woman is pursuing a dream of submission, man a dream of identification. Want of authenticity does not pay: each blames the other for the unhappiness he or she has incurred in yielding to the temptations of the easy way; what man and woman loathe in each other is the shattering frustration of each one’s own bad faith and baseness.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #83

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    Hmm. If I understood Marm, and the "third-wave feminist" thing.

    The "there aren't any good men left" statement is a message that both those who want to return to old gender roles, and those who call themselves third wave feminists share.

    Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Theodore or Franklin? What would be the relevant quote?
    Theodore Roosevelt. Guy was just awesome.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The victim mentality is deeply unsexy. Maybe that accounts for all the "striking out"?
    I wouldn't know.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #86
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I had some thoughts about this earlier, and it seems to be largely supply and demand. Or better said, societal demand and then the need to supply. I see this only as a major problem for P-men. They might slack behind a bit more than J-men. But ultimately, as the society will start to demand more from us again in the future, we will start supplying again. It's more like we're just in a bit of a rut, or a low tandem, at the moment.

    Ofcourse good education will always be important. If the demand is that you need to be educated, enough men will supply themselves and become educated.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #87
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Hmm. If I understood Marm, and the "third-wave feminist" thing.

    The "there aren't any good men left" statement is a message that both those who want to return to old gender roles, and those who call themselves third wave feminists share.

    Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
    The "third wave" is, of course, an agglomeration of a bunch of different ideas, but in general it is associated with postructuralist theory and sex-positivity (being pro-porn, etc.,.) I'm not aware that there's any strain of "where have all the good men gone" whining that's contained within that category, as I assumed that was the intellectual domain of shitty women's magazines and oddities like Katie Roiphe (the former usually proposing that the solution is for women to tone their asses and legs, and the latter proposing that they should promptly get back to the kitchen.) Or MRAs, who would like to adopt both of those solutions.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #88
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Well, "envy" wasn't quite the right word, and "begrudge" is even more in the wrong direction.

    I am not sure how to explain it, and this is again just pure speculation, but I know of no species in which the female alone is sacrificed for the survival or the species (though many die in the birthing process) while there are plenty (especially in the insect world) where the male is. It seems quite plausible that human males are just bred to consider their worth being based on what they do rather than who they are.
    Oh, but I did know what you meant. The "envy" is more a speculative metaphor. It's still kind of surprising to me to think of men envying women for any reason, considering the sorts of discourse out there about the inferiority of women (not that I mean that all men look down on women).
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #89
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I would tend to agree with the video, and that the internet, gaming, etc., are substituting for real-world interaction and making males generally less compelled to go out of their comfort zone. This is true to females as well. No one wants to get out of their comfort zone....We are basically spoiled in that way, and have been for a long time. At some point along the way, the Me generation said Enough! to constricted societal mores and began to indulge in more self-gratification, which, interestingly, also followed close on the 70's return of women in large numbers to the work force. I really think there is a directly proportionate relationship between time spent together as a family and children's involvement in the real world.

    But I think you have to take it back even farther, this discussion about addictive behavior. The internet, Microsoft, nor Pornhub, make someone an addict. The stage for addiction is set way before the child even knows what an Xbox is (though it is close perhaps)-- it is set in infancy and early childhood when an child's basic needs for love, nurturing, and mostly time involvement are not met by at least one parent (ideally), or caregiver. When our needs are not met, we learn to self-soothe. As we get older, self-soothing takes many forms, eventually becoming the porn, drinking, and debauchery we are all too familiar with. In addition, we have not learned, or been forced by our parents, to interact with the 'outside' world, so we also are beginning to lack social skills.

    That's my opinion.
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I had some thoughts about this earlier, and it seems to be largely supply and demand. Or better said, societal demand and then the need to supply. I see this only as a major problem for P-men. They might slack behind a bit more than J-men. But ultimately, as the society will start to demand more from us again in the future, we will start supplying again. It's more like we're just in a bit of a rut, or a low tandem, at the moment.

    Ofcourse good education will always be important. If the demand is that you need to be educated, enough men will supply themselves and become educated.
    I wouldn't be so sure about society demanding more from "P-men" in the future. With our technological progress, the demand for labor is decreasing, so they won't be needed, economically. And it's possible that females will just mate with the more successful males. You see where I'm going with this?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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