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  1. #71
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    You're right. It's very frustrating at times being a man because we are forced to bear the burden and grin. Of course this is over-simplifying things dramatically, but for the sake of this discussion (and those who have not watched the video,) one man or a small group of men cannot point out the double-standards of society or their grievances with women without being marginalized and ignored by men and women alike. Oddly enough, the easiest way for validity to be given to these claims, it seems, is to come from a woman.
    Oh of course. The whole area of gender issues is such a minefield, it's hard to explain one's views (especially if they challenge or reframe the popular discourse) without stepping on a sore spot. I just wish both sides could talk about their grievances in a reasonable way that each could understand and sympathise with, without it turning into a battle of the sexes. You're right that it certainly makes it easier to hear coming from a woman. And I personally am keen to demonstrate that there isn't a conflict between feminism and compassionate consideration of the issues afflicting men.

    If you liked that video, you'd probably also like her video "Feminism and the Disposable Male," which partially addresses those concerns you've raised. It's also very fascinating and thought-provoking.
    I will get on to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Think about the survival of the species. The female performs the much more vital role, biologically speaking.

    Frankly, the woman in the video makes the point as well as can be made. You could perhaps call it womb envy.

    Whether a woman values herself as herself or as the role she plays in society affects very little the survival or the group, culture, or species.

    A man, however, who indulges in valuing himself for simply being, can be a threat to the group, culture, or species, because he, on average, adds little value by simply being (biologically speaking).
    God, womb envy. I never would have thought of this as being something a man would begrudge - just as I never imagined men could see themselves as inherently useless compared with women.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    God, womb envy. I never would have thought of this as being something a man would begrudge - just as I never imagined men could see themselves as inherently useless compared with women.
    Well, "envy" wasn't quite the right word, and "begrudge" is even more in the wrong direction.

    I am not sure how to explain it, and this is again just pure speculation, but I know of no species in which the female alone is sacrificed for the survival or the species (though many die in the birthing process) while there are plenty (especially in the insect world) where the male is. It seems quite plausible that human males are just bred to consider their worth being based on what they do rather than who they are.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #73
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I think there's some truth to say there's envy between the two genders. Maybe not womb-envy specifically, as I don't believe men are inclined to ask for the pain of child-birth per se, but there's envy enough that in a Titanic situation, I would certainly wish for the preferential treatment and be envious of the women who received it. Not to mention upset at the inherent sexism behind it all.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  4. #74
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    To make a long point short, a man's worth is determined by his usefulness. A man is useful insofar as he is capable of contributing to society; i.e. working and sacrificing himself for others. A woman is useful by virtue of her being a woman and being able to give birth.
    This is not true though. At best, a woman's worth is also determined by her usefulness & selflessness - mainly, is she a good mom/housekeeper? A woman who does not put her family & home first is seen as bad (ie. just one illustration of this: a lot of women tend to "let themselves go" with age because they feel they must put all their energy into the kids/home; they sacrifice any "personal time" because it might be "selfish"). If she goes the career route, then how much of her personal life is she willing to sacrifice for her job (and this is questioned far more for women than for men)?

    Supposedly, women have the option to be "useful" via a career OR being a homemaker, but in reality they have to "do it all", so there is no choice (it's AND not OR). If she's "just" a homemaker, then she's seen as sad and/or lazy, and generally "lesser" than men. If she's "just" a career-woman, then she's either seen as cold and/or "unfeminine", and often "selfish".

    At worst, a woman's worth is determined by her sexiness & physical appearance & how much it is enjoyed by a man & how much it boosts his status to "get" & "have" her. She is not valued for being a woman, and certainly not for being an individual, but valued as a beautiful object to be possessed & used.

    I'm not saying men get it any better.... Here we probably agree, as far as men choosing extended childhoods over "manhood" which feels increasingly like a competition with women, and therefore rather less "valuable" (and we won't even get into the implications of something being less valuable when a woman can do it too….I obviously disagree with the video on that point).

    Men don't have much of a choice, not even the illusion of one that women have. Their social value mostly amounts what they do outside the home. Within the home, they were also deemed a good guy by society so long as they provided financially. Everything else was the woman's job.

    I think what Marm is saying is it shouldn't matter if a man makes the "homemaker" or "career" choice so long as he does SOMETHING besides JUST wank & play video games.

    However, the issue in the OP is about contributing something emotionally. This is where the resentment comes into play.... those guys apparently want it to be enough to just work outside the home & not be abusive, and in return get a clean home, a hot meal, a willing woman, and well-behaved offspring they can take credit for despite interacting with very little (...someone mentioned the "Mad Men" fantasy). Women, however, can no longer be the little housewife only & still have value; and they resent this double standard, yes. This resentment comes out in a variety of ways, whether it's the silly claims of the gender studies girls that men are unnecessary to them or anti-feminist romanticizing of the 1950s. Because women are expected of doing both or doing it ALL, they seem to expect both from men too, or to share both roles (so as not to do it ALL alone).

    The emphasis for women is on "partner" now instead of "provider", and so there's also a greater emphasis on LOVE, or emotional connection in marriage. Sure, there's always been romance & love & a connection of it to marriage, but this is what people (or at least women) see as the MAIN reason for it now.

    However, society doesn't really give value to men for the homemaker duties or for their emotional role in the family. I agree with the video's points about how being husband is equated to a "chump" now.
    I suppose this makes some guys feel like women are just competing for their value or reducing it when women also accomplish stuff outside the home. They then resent women's "demands" that they do something within the home & be able to connect emotionally, since they don't get social value for it like women do. Love & romance are just burdens then, not valuable, which makes them "replaced" by impersonal stuff like gaming & porn.

    However, some of these "guys" don't even want to do anything outside the home... they have some idea that they should be allowed to be valued for who they are as a person (which is porn-addicted, video game obsessed infants...?), but yet, women are not valuable to them as anything but sex objects. If the woman asks to be more than a sex object, then she's accused of being nagging or demanding. If a woman expects a contribution to the pot, then she's a golddigger. If she wants a family with children, then she's plotting to drain him financially in the future. If she wants love & affection, then she's an intellectual/emotional whore (or whatever). She's not valued for who she is either….. Here I disagree with the video's idea that women have an "intrinsic" value because of their uterus (which I go into below)...

    In all fairness, there is definitely another male perspective (or a gazillion ones) to this "guy" reaction. As the video mentions, women hear little about what men want in relationships outside of what seems to be reactionary, amounting to basic desires - food, sleep, sex, with women filling the role of a sperm receptacle. If that's the whole reality of it, then it sadly does make the genders look inherently incompatible…

    I have to agree with Marm that the "too high expectations" attitude in women is more of an upper middle class to upper class issue…. I agree with the video that this is a REAL issue though, just not across the board when it comes to social class. I remember watching that "Eat Pray Love" movie and being totally disgusted with the Julia Roberts characters & her selfish entitlement. She leaves her husband, who the movie shows to be a rather good guy who just can't decide on his career path (hmmm….?), because she just feels like she's lacking "something". The problem is HER & her ridiculous self-absorption & inability to decide what she wants or to be happy with it when she gets it, which the movie fails to ever fully address (but I won't go into a critique of that).

    I do disagree with the idea that female traits aren't seen as lesser & therefore women can gender-bend, etc. I think women can gender-bend because masculine traits are seen as making them stronger, whereas feminine traits are seen as making men weaker. She doesn't provide any reason as to why the uterus is somehow providing intrinsic value to women… I mean, the same has been argued about the penis in the past… This just seems like a "womb envy" theory. The evolutionary aspect is weak to me. There's no bun in the oven without a man…how is the sperm receptacle any more valuable than the sperm donor? It's not. And contrary to stupid media ideals, few women want to raise children alone without a male.

    Female infanticide & the prizing of a male heir over female children definitely don't support that women have more intrinsic value either… The protection of women over men seems to stem from the idea of women being "the weaker sex", or inferior in some way, and indeed that gives the man a masculine role as the "protector". I don't think it's about women being more valuable, but giving value to men as being "stronger" and being noble in their sacrifice (which she touches on in the video when she talks about those white feather women). So men putting women's lives over their own is really about their OWN value.

    Some of the video has the 'boys will be boys" flavor to it, like women are these overly demanding delicate flowers who need to accept the more rough, crudeness of men & stop trying to civilize them…. The idea that women do ALL the adjusting in the workplace so men aren't emasculated seems to swing to the other extreme….

    And last random thought: how much does the video sounds like "Feeling vs Thinking" in some aspects? Value for women is personal relating and for men it's impersonal doing…. The workplace is about impersonal competition, very T again. I found that interesting...

    FYI, this is like Ne spewing here, so no need to tell me there are loose ends
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #75

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    A list of quotes from the internet
    A man's worth is no greater than his ambitions.
    Marcus Aurelius
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...Zw4aPjBZiGj.99

    The true worth of a man is not to be found in man himself, but in the colours and textures that come alive in others.
    Albert Schweitzer
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...PR5Hh1lOhxo.99

    A man can do only what he can do. But if he does that each day he can sleep at night and do it again the next day.
    Albert Schweitzer
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...PR5Hh1lOhxo.99

    "What is the worth of a man?

    Is it in the might of his fist,
    or the cash he has in hand?
    Is it the Rolex on his wrist,
    or his castles built in sand?

    Is it within his church of choice,
    or the spirit of his speech?
    Is it in the wisdom of voice,
    or his boast that he is weak?

    Is it the car in his garage,
    or his house that stands so tall?
    Is it the star in his mirage--
    his “ego” that states he’s small?

    ~~~~~~

    A man his worth-- is what he does,
    to improve the lot of man.
    No resting upon what he was--
    he helps now-- because he can.

    A man his worth-- his helpful hands,
    these hands he no longer owns,
    extended to his brother man,
    he’s beyond just flesh and bons.

    His actions will show his true worth,
    his honor tills a better land,
    A smile that seeds brand new birth,
    through action-- he’s the hope of man.

    George "

    "1. No man or woman is worth your tears, and the one who is, won't make you
    cry."
    http://zentouch.cz/Clanky/On_love.pdf

    If you search e-how for "good man", this is what you'll find:
    http://www.ehow.com/how_8148826_tell-good-man.html
    It is essentially instructions for "testing" a man...paraphrasing...
    1) Examine his behavior. [...]
    2) Reach out to him in times of need. [...]
    3) Show your quirky side. Maybe you like to keep your closet color coded or arrange the food pantry according to the sizes of the boxes, jars and cans. [...]
    4) Test his intelligence. [...]
    If you search e-how for "good woman", this is what you'll find:
    http://www.ehow.com/facts_5148499_qu...ood-woman.html
    A list of qualities of a good woman...paraphrasing...
    Self-Awareness
    A good woman should know who she is and accept every part of herself as beautiful. Self-awareness brings self-assurance, which fosters other good traits.
    [...]
    Independence
    Independence means a woman who doesn't require anything else to fulfill her sense of self. She is confident in her own life and constitutes a complete person regardless of whether she's in a relationship.
    [...]
    Responsible
    A good woman can be counted on in times of trouble and knows how to take care of problems without assistance.
    [...]
    Kindness
    Kindness leads to trust and affection. Look for a woman who thinks of others as much as herself and treats others the way she would like to be treated.
    [...]
    Trustworthy
    You can't be in a relationship with a woman who isn't worthy of trust. You should be able to count on her to be honest and not deceive those close to her.
    [...]
    Draw your own conclusions.

    Don't worry though. At some point, women will also, on average, make their self-worth contingent on their actions, abilities and accomplishments.
    Last edited by ygolo; 06-17-2012 at 11:20 PM.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #76
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The sterotype of boys being the troublemakers in school has been around for as long as I can remember. When I first moved to the U.S., one of the boys in my class asked me: "Are you going to learn the bad habits from us, or the good habits from the girls?" Apparently, I was too good a student to fit in with the boys in class.
    The stereotype that guys like ArmyMen/Fireman/transformers/Legos/etc while girls like Barbies/house/fluff-dolls/cooking? Yes, that stereotype is still there. If it is not there, it is implied.

    I grew up being the "good" boy, so I stayed away from trouble. The people I knew were the same.

    But I'll state what I said earlier, we need to look at other social inclinations why guys are acting this way.

    There aren't as much social responsibility these days than we had 30 years ago. We aren't forced to succumb to rituals of the past. We are essentially allowed to break away from that mold. The notion that I, and others, have not grown because I have not chosen a SO, married her early (at 18-20 years old,) bought a house, and move on in my merry way is unjust and unfair in this day and age.

    Quite frankly, I'd rather get my degree, and get a stable structure that I can truly support instead of a structure I can support in a half-assed manner because of other people's pre-conceived idea of what constitutes as "manhood."

    Above all, I'd rather take my time than rush it and regret it later in life.

  7. #77

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    Don't get me wrong. Around the world, women are mistreated, denied the vote, sold into the sex-trade, killed because of their gender, and so on. My intention was not to make this a competition.

    I was getting more at the potential on the "enlightened" side of things (as illustrated in the e-how articles). In these circles, a woman can be appreciated for who she is. However, even among "enlightened" circles, men are judged on how well they perform, and live up to expectations.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    The stereotype that guys like ArmyMen/Fireman/transformers/Legos/etc while girls like Barbies/house/fluff-dolls/cooking?
    No. I was specifically referring to the fact that younger boys are expected to misbehave in school.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Ehh...actually I hold socialism, or the way socialism has been warped in the U.S. to strangely alleviate fathers of responsibility while depriving the entire nation of adequate education and healthcare...somewhat responsible for the "absentee father" phenomenon. For a couple of decades, men could get off scot free, knowing their lady friend could either have an abortion or get on welfare if they didn't want to raise their children. Problem is, even married fathers started doing this, abandoning their families sometimes to the welfare system (as with my mother's second husband, for example) UNTIL they started cracking down and doing DL checks and wage garnishment on fathers, and now they can even do paternity tests for DNA.

    Another problem is the blindness of second wave feminism (I am a third wave feminist) saying "women can do everything." Problem being, women are now more unhappy than they were in the 1970's...because...you guessed it...women are expected to do EVERYTHING. So what if both men and women work? The woman should still raise the kids and do housework!

    Not all women have a superwoman complex, and there really shouldn't be so many single mothers on welfare.

    This is a complex social illness, but I think these two factors, plus the outrageous lie that boys are somehow SUPPOSED to be less responsible than girls has been perpetuated in our society.

    Thus, we've got a nation full of Gen Y female college graduates and Gen Y males who live with their mom and play video games.

    Good times.
    Not sure what you're describing as socialism Marm, the welfare state isnt socialism, the state per se sure isnt socialism either.

    Anyway, I think its the cultural and normative fall from capitalism which has cause the rash of dead beats, they dont give a shit whether anyone is helped out by welfare or not, there's no conscious decision being made there that they'll be alright so bailing is fine, its just selfish behaviour.

    And the only ideology validating selfishness and suggesting it should be more widespread is capitalism, not just Ayn Rand's version either, the more unconscious cultural aspect of it, telling everyone they can should have everything because they just deserve it and all potential should be explored rather than you have to live with consequences and owe a duty to the next generation as much as they owe to you has won out.

    Cant really comment about feminism, I do think its important that ideas keep a pace with developments, also that when they are written with representing a particular population in mind that they know whether they are really representing them or not. Feminism became unconnected to the experience of women and that was a bit tragic but its happened to other ideologies.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    A list of quotes from the internet
    A man's worth is no greater than his ambitions.
    Marcus Aurelius
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...Zw4aPjBZiGj.99

    The true worth of a man is not to be found in man himself, but in the colours and textures that come alive in others.
    Albert Schweitzer
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...PR5Hh1lOhxo.99

    A man can do only what he can do. But if he does that each day he can sleep at night and do it again the next day.
    Albert Schweitzer
    http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...PR5Hh1lOhxo.99

    "What is the worth of a man?

    Is it in the might of his fist,
    or the cash he has in hand?
    Is it the Rolex on his wrist,
    or his castles built in sand?

    Is it within his church of choice,
    or the spirit of his speech?
    Is it in the wisdom of voice,
    or his boast that he is weak?

    Is it the car in his garage,
    or his house that stands so tall?
    Is it the star in his mirage--
    his “ego” that states he’s small?

    ~~~~~~

    A man his worth-- is what he does,
    to improve the lot of man.
    No resting upon what he was--
    he helps now-- because he can.

    A man his worth-- his helpful hands,
    these hands he no longer owns,
    extended to his brother man,
    he’s beyond just flesh and bons.

    His actions will show his true worth,
    his honor tills a better land,
    A smile that seeds brand new birth,
    through action-- he’s the hope of man.

    George "

    "1. No man or woman is worth your tears, and the one who is, won't make you
    cry."
    http://zentouch.cz/Clanky/On_love.pdf

    If you search e-how for "good man", this is what you'll find:
    http://www.ehow.com/how_8148826_tell-good-man.html
    It is essentially instructions for "testing" a man...paraphrasing...

    If you search e-how for "good man", this is what you'll find:
    http://www.ehow.com/facts_5148499_qu...ood-woman.html
    A list of qualities of a good woman...paraphrasing...


    Draw your own conclusions.

    Don't worry though. At some point, women will also, on average, make their self-worth contingent on their actions, abilities and accomplishments.
    Here, you know who's good for quotes, Roosevelt. He the man.

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