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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Yeah I know what you're saying. I remember talking to some Men's Rights guys once, and they were basically chanting: The wimmenz won't make the sex with me! Child support...or something? I wanted them to win me over so badly so I could direct my repressed rage at someone, but they just couldn't sell it to me.
    Yeah...this is how it comes across to me, too. Like women aren't performing (?) as they "should" sexually for that man? They should be more traditional, more submissive...or maybe they can't get a gf at all? Because there are totally traditional, submissive women out there, but I often wonder about guys with "nice guy syndrome" because they tend to focus on the wrong women, the women they can't have, and won't date the women who actually would have a relationship with them..because they idealize that which is unattainable, it's not only women who are attracted to assholes, but I digress.

    And the child support thing is bull crap. You make a baby, you pay for it, STFU.

    I would have also loved to hear you pipe in about sex! I mean, half of those girls probably read Fifty Shades of Gray, but as soon as they put on their srs gender studies pants it's all: death to penis! They remind me of those freshman kids who take a bunch of intro arts courses and then start passionately quoting Ayn Rand while wearing their Che Guevara t-shirt.
    Yeah I really don't get this, which is why I am a third wave feminist. I also have no desire to be a man, or to do everything by myself. Well, I take that back, I actually am quite self-sufficient and pride myself on my ability to win at life, even if only a survival level, because this scrappiness allows me to take risks and go for what I really want. But no I don't want to be the career woman/supermom/let-me-do-everything...however I've noticed, just in my personal experience, SFJs doing this...like wanting to do everything because they're afraid other people won't do it "right." And maybe it's a Je thing in general, maybe Je types are more likely to have these control issues and romanticize it in theory, I don't know.

    I want to win every argument, but srsly take out the garbage and wash your own dishes, kthnxbai.

  2. #62
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    @Marmie Dearest You seem to be projecting your own personalized aggravations into this thread. From what I infer from your posts, you are angry at the men who have been in your life who have placed expectations on you to be "more traditional." You feel as though their criticisms are unwarranted, which is fair enough. However, I also see some disparities in your posts which are shared by a number of women. (Please note that this is not a personal attack; if you feel otherwise, note that I am using your posts as a platform and mean no ill-will.)

    1. You claim to want men to be comfortable being a stay-at-home dad.
    2. You claim to want men to also work and not be a dreg on society. (Or perhaps, more notably, the breadwinner.)

    These two view points cause a few issues from a man's point of view, which are not often appreciated in their severity. While these roles are not mutually exclusive, only one of those two views would traditionally provide respect for a man (being a breadwinner.) More than that, the only one which adds to the "male identity" is being a breadwinner, since that is what the traditional role of being a successful, respectable man was.

    To make a long point short, a man's worth is determined by his usefulness. A man is useful insofar as he is capable of contributing to society; i.e. working and sacrificing himself for others. A woman is useful by virtue of her being a woman and being able to give birth. This view is still advocated today in that men are allowed to go to war, while women are not allowed on the front lines (although this has recently been changed, the base statistics still favor this model.) Traditionally, a man who does not own up to the virtues of acting manly, and sacrifice himself to the benefits of others is deemed worthless. Men's worth is derived from their selflessness while women's worth is validated in selfishness. (Women and children are allowed to board lifeboats first...etc.) If a man does not adhere to the traditional way of being a man, he's often called a pussy, or a fag, or other term of emasculation. It is important to note that a man who acts feminine is considered worthless, while a women who acts either feminine or masculine is not.


    Thus, we get back to the main issue of the decline of men in society. With the advent of feminism and the movement of women entering the workforce and their rising independence, we run into the issue of the male's role in this paradigm shift. Either his role is to be the breadwinner or something else, as yet undefined. Yet while women have gained the ability to effectively change gender roles (in that a woman can act both femininely and masculinely,) men have not and are stuck with the view that they should be the breadwinners; anything less and not only are they failures by the standards of men, but they are worthless to society as well.

    While women claim they may want a stay-at-home-father for a husband, there is nothing about the role which validates a man by society's standards. Thus, even when a man willingly engages himself at this role, friends, family, and strangers may think of the man as a slob, a loser, a slacker, a good-for-nothing, or even worse, a scrub--a man forced to rely on his female partner due to his own shortcomings. Since being a homemaker traditionally falls under the female's role, the man who fills it is essentially worthless and easily replaced by a female, who may be better-suited to it due to basic biology.

    Of course, with the ever-increasing competitiveness in the job market, inevitably women will out-compete their male counterparts for jobs. What then do the males turn to? Often enough, young men will try and mask their failure of conforming to society's expectations of being a man and choose instead a life of either permanent or extended childhood. Hence the staggering number of young men who have turned to playing video games in their moms' basements.

    What roles can these kidults fulfill? After years of being told via radical feminists that men are easily disposable, they have listened. Instead of becoming men, they have chosen to remain children. Thus, they seek the only proper forms of fulfillment and stimulation they can obtain--by playing video games and sacrificing their fake characters for their fake societies. And they watch porn to let loose their natural frustrations. Of course, not all men do this or suffer from this crisis. There are indeed many who can overcome these obstacles and lead fulfilling lives via the traditional roles of manhood. But what then of those who can't? As I've stated before, men who don't contribute to society are deemed worthless and they're marginalized. Thus, we have an entire generation of "forever alones" who cannot speak up for themselves in any constructive way due to pressure from both males and females to conform. Any call to action they make, or any issues they want to have redressed they are told to "suck it up" and their problems are ignored. After all, men are the ones who are supposed to make sacrifices for society. Any cries for help those at the fringes just aren't good enough.







    TL;DR- After years of saying men are easily replaceable by women, women have finally done so and wonder what has happened to men. Thus men have become marginalized not only by women, but also by other men who are still able to function in the paradigm shift in the "de-genderization" of women. Those marginalized can't meet expectations and try to live like children, playing video games in moms' basements.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #63
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    @Blank im not even talking about the men I have dated, Im talking about what Im observed in modern society.

    Ive found that people often use the word "projecting" on the Internet incorrectly as a synonym for "I don't like your opinion."

    Yes I applaud stay at home dads, but that doesn't mean I want to marry one, just as I applaud women who are high powered lawyers but don't want to be one myself.

    I really hate people who try to drag politics into my sex life, like if I approve of men who are stay at home dads, I can only mean it if I marry one.

    Or people who say you're a feminist only if you work outside of the home.

    Raising kids and keeping house is a job, you sexist weirdo.

    Oh, not a personal attack. Of course not.

  4. #64
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    Anyone who posted in or read this thread needs to read this.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Man-V.../dp/1563899809

    / didn't read thread

  5. #65
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    You know what? I also already mentioned that 2nd wave feminism was PARTLY responsible for baby boy syndrome, so with your TL; DR you not only summarized one of my own points, but failed to examine other factors that aren't the fault of the evil feminazis with superwoman syndrome who won't sleep with you.

  6. #66
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4&feature=relmfu"]Men not marrying? How deep does "the problem" go?[/YOUTUBE]

    Relevant.
    That was fascinating, thanks.

    Some of the things she says I have been saying myself for years - such as the representations of men in TV, movies and advertisements as stupid, pathetic, incompetent, buffoons. Some of her other points are new to me and leave me something to think about. And I certainly don't like the way some women want their cake and to eat it too with regards to relationships - as well as the way they regularly degrade and control men.

    However, when a man responds to negative pressure by society by indulging in immature, obnoxious, sexist behaviour and discourse, it's difficult for women to look past this and ask themselves why, rather than simply view it with disdain and disgust. It's so difficult for us to understand, because men don't seem to communicate their frustration in a way women understand (which I guess, like the woman in the video explained, is just another way men are expected to conform to a feminine approach).

    I do wonder how this problem can be remedied, because admittedly, I struggle to understand how someone could not find intrinsic value in themselves, but rather than in their usefulness or in the role they play in society.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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  7. #67
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    @Marmie Dearest Perhaps I was wrong in saying that you were angry at men wanting you to be more traditional. Your posts indicated nothing of that sort, and I apologize for the negligence. I suppose it might have been more accurate to say you were angry at the lack of influence/responsibility of the men in your life.

    In direct response to your post, I did not mention specifically men you've dated. I mentioned men in your life, like your stepfather, though I referred to none specifically. Aside from the first few sentences, nothing else in my post pertained to you at all; yet it seems to me as though you took offense somehow. I'm sorry if you did but I was truly just using it as a launching point for my post.



    As for your concerns that "people often use the word "projecting" on the Internet incorrectly as a synonym for 'I don't like your opinion.'" You may be half-correct. While I do not agree with all of your opinions, what I meant in that you were projecting your aggravations was that you were adding short-sided personal comments or grievances into the thread that had little to do with the topic at hand. For example:

    It's dangerous for people to think the educated middle class is representative of everyone, because it's surely not. Things like domestic violence are still a huge issue...and yes, most cases are still men though a small percentage are women. That's why I think men's rights is a bunch of bull. Because to me it just seems like an overreaction to upper middle class man hating lesbians and feminazis..
    I personally dislike this comment in general because it comes across as being ignorant to any legitimate claims activists for men's rights may have. It seems to me you're also "projecting" your values in the true sense of the word by saying men's rights is a bunch of bull. I think such a statement trivializes the entire mra platform and derails further discussion about it because it's effectively saying you're not going to listen to anyone who's going to bring it up, even if you don't actually feel this way.

    I would like to have a discussion surrounding the issues of the so-called "demise of guys," particularly relating to the issues I've raised in my post. I would just prefer to see more open dialogue.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #68

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    Regarding Gender Studies:
    It's funny, not more than a week and a half ago, two women in my time-dependent quantum mechanics class were complaining about gender studies classes they had taken before. Apparently, they weren't allowed to give their opinons about females in science (despite being females in science).

    One wanted to say that she was herself a female in science and did not experience discrimination, but was told essentially to STFU, that the fact that she didn't see discrimination meant that the establishment was just getting better at hiding it, and something along the lines that they were helping to propogate the system. (I don't remember exaclty, but it stuck me as nonsensical)

    They both vehemently hated the idea of quotas and affirmitive action, and said they were perfeclty capable of succeeding on their own.

    I related to them a story about an engineering professor I had that apparently told a female student that he could teach a dog engineering better than he could a woman.

    They said that they were aware that discrimination exists, but that they themselves did not experience it (To be fair, I am now on a different coast, and it has been many years since undergrad for me).

    Regarding the demise of guys:
    The sterotype of boys being the troublemakers in school has been around for as long as I can remember. When I first moved to the U.S., one of the boys in my class asked me: "Are you going to learn the bad habits from us, or the good habits from the girls?" Apparently, I was too good a student to fit in with the boys in class.

    Even in India, and I think around the wolrd, there was the rhyme:
    "What are little boys made of?
    What are little boys made of?
    Slugs and snails
    And puppy-dogs' tails,
    That's what little boys are made of.
    What are little girls made of?
    What are little girls made of?
    Sugar and spice
    And everything nice,
    That's what little girls are made of."

    Perhaps what is happening now is the negative self-image of boys being bad extends into adulthood.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That was fascinating, thanks.
    No problem! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

    Some of the things she says I have been saying myself for years - such as the representations of men in TV, movies and advertisements as stupid, pathetic, incompetent, buffoons. Some of her other points are new to me and leave me something to think about. And I certainly don't like the way some women want their cake and to eat it too with regards to relationships - as well as the way they regularly degrade and control men

    However, when a man responds to negative pressure by society by indulging in immature, obnoxious, sexist behaviour and discourse, it's difficult for women to look past this and ask themselves why, rather than simply view it with disdain and disgust. It's so difficult for use to understand, because men don't seem to communicate their frustration in a way women understand (which I guess, like the woman in the video explained, is just another way men are expected to conform to a feminine approach).
    You're right. It's very frustrating at times being a man because we are forced to bear the burden and grin. Of course this is over-simplifying things dramatically, but for the sake of this discussion (and those who have not watched the video,) one man or a small group of men cannot point out the double-standards of society or their grievances with women without being marginalized and ignored by men and women alike. Oddly enough, the easiest way for validity to be given to these claims, it seems, is to come from a woman.

    I do wonder how this problem can be remedied, because admittedly, I struggle to understand how someone could not find intrinsic value in themselves, but rather than in their usefulness or in the role they play in society.
    If you liked that video, you'd probably also like her video "Feminism and the Disposable Male," which partially addresses those concerns you've raised. It's also very fascinating and thought-provoking.[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA&feature=relmfu"]"Feminism and the Disposable Male[/YOUTUBE]
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I struggle to understand how someone could not find intrinsic value in themselves, but rather than in their usefulness or in the role they play in society.
    Think about the survival of the species. The female performs the much more vital role, biologically speaking.

    Frankly, the woman in the video makes the point as well as can be made. You could perhaps call it womb envy.

    Whether a woman values herself as herself or as the role she plays in society affects very little the survival or the group, culture, or species.

    A man, however, who indulges in valuing himself for simply being, can be a threat to the group, culture, or species, because he, on average, adds little value by simply being (biologically speaking).

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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