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  1. #351
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Yeah, I understand that; it is, in effect, what I was saying. I said "to the extent that men have a healthy X chromosome..."
    But your whole argument (about "great divergence") is pants.
    Having a single X makes you much more vulnerable to deleterious recessive genes that cause mental retardation, amongst other problems. ("Healthy chromosome" is essentially meaningless, as sprinkles points out).
    And the Y chromosome is remarkably consistent across a species.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #352
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But your whole argument (about "great divergence") is pants.
    Having a single X makes you much more vulnerable to deleterious recessive genes that cause mental retardation, amongst other problems. ("Healthy chromosome" is essentially meaningless, as sprinkles points out).
    And the Y chromosome is remarkably consistent across a species.
    Right, it causes the mutations that arise in the X-chromosome, whether deleterious or beneficial, to be more pronounced in men. So, to the extent that genetic mutations found on the X-chromosome have a positive impact on a person, they will have a greater positive impact on men than on women.

    I am curious about why you would say that the term "healthy chromosome" is meaningless. Would you prefer that I say "relatively healthy chromosome" (as in, compared to all X-chromosomes in existence, this particular X-chromosome yields a set of characteristics that most people would find helpful and appealing)? I don't want to get stuck in some semantic argument here. Choose whatever term you'd like...

    Regarding the Y-chromosome, I suppose I'm still not understanding why it's so irrelevant. I do understand that, in totality, it codes for a very little part of a developing human. Further, I concede that at this juncture it doesn't appear to lead to any great divergence among the male population. However, in particular, the research I quoted earlier seemed to suggest that the chromosome was not disappearing, and was actually evolving faster than all other chromosomes. So, isn't it possible that, insofar as that research is accurate, it could eventually have an impact. What am I missing here?
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  3. #353
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Right, it causes the mutations that arise in the X-chromosome, whether deleterious or beneficial, to be more pronounced in men. So, to the extent that genetic mutations found on the X-chromosome have a positive impact on a person, they will have a greater positive impact on men than on women.
    Wow. Um...no.

    Regarding the Y-chromosome, I suppose I'm still not understanding why it's so irrelevant. I do understand that, in totality, it codes for a very little part of a developing human. Further, I concede that at this juncture it doesn't appear to lead to any great divergence among the male population. However, in particular, the research I quoted earlier seemed to suggest that the chromosome was not disappearing, and was actually evolving faster than all other chromosomes. So, isn't it possible that, insofar as that research is accurate, it could What am I missing here?
    Wut? No. You need to do some more research. "Evolving" doesn't mean what you think it means in this context.
    Yeah, I'm being lazy. But so are you. And you have more to lose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #354
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Wow. Um...no.
    Explicitly lay it out for me please. Are you suggesting that there are no positive mutations that exist in the X-chromosome? Given the complex nature of human development, you don't think that there are particular variations present in the X-chromosome that can be relatively beneficial?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Wut? No. You need to do some more research. "Evolving" doesn't mean what you think it means in this context.
    Yeah, I'm being lazy. But so are you. And you have more to lose.
    I think evolving means changing. Am I incorrect?

    Also, what do I have to lose? I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, nor am I here to do anything other than present ideas, respond to critiques, and learn. If I'm completely wrong in everything I present, which is entirely possible as I am not well studied in this field, then so be it. But, if that happens, it is going to happen because someone with greater knowledge presents clear reasoning for why my conjectures (that might even be too strong of a word) are not feasible/possible. It isn't going to happen with a "Wow. Um...no."
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  5. #355
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Given the complex nature of human development, you don't think that there are particular variations present in the X-chromosome that can be relatively beneficial?
    Where there are they will favour females. For the reasons already provided.
    I think evolving means changing. Am I incorrect?
    The Y chromosome is deteriorating. It shrinks over time. It doesn't evolve in the way you are assuming.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_Curse

    Here is Ridley on intergenomic conflict between X and Y.
    http://courses.biology.utah.edu/daws...20Conflict.pdf

    Mutations in mitochondrial DNA more harmful to men.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...n-8002286.html

    Male hormones are bad for health/longevity
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19699266
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #356
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Where there are they will favour females. For the reasons already provided.
    See, I don't understand your logic here; or perhaps I'm missing some major fact about how the dual X-Chromosomes are expressed in women. It was my understanding that one of the X-Chromosomes goes through X inactivation, and which chromosome is "chosen" to be deactivated in a particular cell is essentially a random process. A woman will have some mixture of active X1 chromosomes and active X2 chromosomes. Further, there is empirical evidence that the expression of X-linked disorders in women is variable, with some women expressing greater effects than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The Y chromosome is deteriorating. It shrinks over time. It doesn't evolve in the way you are assuming.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_Curse
    Here is Ridley on intergenomic conflict between X and Y. http://courses.biology.utah.edu/daws...20Conflict.pdf
    I'm assuming that the Y chromosome is evolving in essentially the same way as any other chromosome. That is, it changes. To the extent that those changes do not adversely affect the organism, they remain. Further, to the extent that they benefit the organism's reproductive success, they become more prevalent in the species. By this logic, any part of the Y chromosome that is lost is redundant and unnecessary for continued reproductive success. I don't think it necessarily follows that, just because it has decreased in size over time, it isn't changing (or couldn't change) in ways that could be potentially beneficial.
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  7. #357
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    See, I don't understand your logic here; or perhaps I'm missing some major fact about how the dual X-Chromosomes are expressed in women. It was my understanding that one of the X-Chromosomes goes through X inactivation, and which chromosome is "chosen" to be deactivated in a particular cell is essentially a random process.
    It's not quite that random. The beneficial gene is often preferentially selected.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewed_X-inactivation
    I'm assuming that the Y chromosome is evolving in essentially the same way as any other chromosome.
    Dont assume. Read. Your logic isn't good enough to suppose you can figure this out intuitively.
    I've provided the material. I'm not prepared to discuss this anymore if you refuse to redeem yourself from ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #358
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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  9. #359
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Right, it causes the mutations that arise in the X-chromosome, whether deleterious or beneficial, to be more pronounced in men. So, to the extent that genetic mutations found on the X-chromosome have a positive impact on a person, they will have a greater positive impact on men than on women.

    I am curious about why you would say that the term "healthy chromosome" is meaningless. Would you prefer that I say "relatively healthy chromosome" (as in, compared to all X-chromosomes in existence, this particular X-chromosome yields a set of characteristics that most people would find helpful and appealing)? I don't want to get stuck in some semantic argument here. Choose whatever term you'd like...

    Regarding the Y-chromosome, I suppose I'm still not understanding why it's so irrelevant. I do understand that, in totality, it codes for a very little part of a developing human. Further, I concede that at this juncture it doesn't appear to lead to any great divergence among the male population. However, in particular, the research I quoted earlier seemed to suggest that the chromosome was not disappearing, and was actually evolving faster than all other chromosomes. So, isn't it possible that, insofar as that research is accurate, it could eventually have an impact. What am I missing here?
    The X chromosome could just as easily carry the traits that the Y chromosome is responsible for. The Y does whatever it does, but not because of its "Y-ness"

    We could have had males be XX and females be XY with the Y triggering sex from the ovum side rather than from the sperm side. That's how snakes work. With them the male has the larger double chromosome with the most information, opposite of humans. However, interestingly, since sex can be determined from the ovum side, a female can effectively clone herself (half clones) without contact with a male under the right conditions.

    This would likely be deleterious because the offspring from this snake would be WW and always female, and one of those W's is always cloned from the mother which means diversity would go kaput. But this would be interesting if these offspring could chose to mate with males and bring the Z chromosome back into the mix again, which is hypothetically possible.

  10. #360
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's not quite that random. The beneficial gene is often preferentially selected.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewed_X-inactivation
    Dont assume. Read. Your logic isn't good enough to suppose you can figure this out intuitively.
    I've provided the material. I'm not prepared to discuss this anymore if you refuse to redeem yourself from ignorance.
    Also inactivation doesn't necessarily take place on the entire chromosome. Genes that are on both X and Y typically get to escape this rule, Probably so that females aren't missing half of something that is essential.

    So even when one X is inactive, it's not the whole X, just most of it.

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