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  1. #241
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    However, it's not as though this can be rectified through legislation whereas as female-to-male wage gap discrepancies can.
    [YOUTUBE="8EK6Y1X_xa4"]Thomas Sowell[/YOUTUBE]
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #242
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    [YOUTUBE="8EK6Y1X_xa4"]Thomas Sowell[/YOUTUBE]
    My sister had the identical job title as a man in her school; was hired at the same time for an identical position and was paid less. When she found out about this, she became highly upset.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #243
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    My sister had the identical job title as a man in her school; was hired at the same time for an identical position and was paid less. When she found out about this, she became highly upset.
    Did she have the same amount of experience and work the same number of hours? Was it manual labor? Was the man friends with those doing the hiring? (that would be corruption, not wage discrimination)

    Regardless, the argument wasn't that wage discrimination never, ever happens, only that its effect is greatly exaggerated by comparing dissimilar groups (women who have taken time off work vs men who have never taken time off, for example). It's not possible to completely eliminate any sort of discrimination (racial, gender, age, etc) without becoming some sort of Orwellian dystopia.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #244
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    The other question is whether or not he negotiated harder when hiring on.

    I know of a situation where there was was a set amount of money that had to be split between two jobs within the same group. They hired one male and one female, where the male had much more experience than the female. Yet the female ended up making ~$20,000 more than the male - simply because she had the first interview and negotiated really hard, leaving much less remaining when it came time to hire him.

  5. #245
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Yes, no, no. But that's not the point. Wage discrimination is something that can be tangibly enforceable by a government. Convincing all women to not act upon double standards is not. The wage discrepancy is an arbitrary example; it could be another issue entirely, like health insurance covering the birth control pill for women vs. viagra for men. Note: I don't feel like having a discussion about that topic, so if you bring it up, don't expect a reply from me. Either way, it's easier to solve tangible problems like those than entire societal expectations for gender roles.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  6. #246
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Sorry for beating a dead horse, but I managed to stumble upon this image:




    Shit like that is depressing.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  7. #247
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    My sister had the identical job title as a man in her school; was hired at the same time for an identical position and was paid less. When she found out about this, she became highly upset.
    I have a hard time believing that there was not some difference between your sister and her colleague. It could be as simple as the man asking for a higher wage, or doing a better job of selling the skills that he had. He could have also been paid more at a previous employer, or had another offer in hand, or lied. It just seems absurd to think that your sister was equal in every way with this man sans the genitals, and yet was paid a lower salary.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #248
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I wonder why you guys are so invested in rationalizing that story?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #249
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Because if it's true, it's blatantly in the wrong. I had a hard time believing it myself when she told me.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  10. #250
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Okay, about the video. First, the title is misleading, favoring a clever name over what's addressed. A better name would have been something like "Scorn porn and blame games", because he doesn't really make a case that men are worse at intimacy now than they used to be, or that they are more apt to prefer the company of men now compared to 50 years ago. None of this may be new... It may just show itself differently today.

    The deteriorating sociability of men may not be as big as we think. There have always been a lot of guys unable to connect to women on a meaningful level. It was just easy for them to follow a set path that allowed them to make up for it and get married. Even a fairly inept guy could go to high school, graduate, and get a good paying job that could support a family. Since women largely lacked these opportunities (or support), such a guy could be a decent catch despite his lack of social skills. However, women have more opportunities, are better educated, and more independent today, so that same guy isn't very desirable anymore.

    This is largely for the good, but still, the same guy that would have had a family and been viewed as "successful" 50 years ago would be far likely to struggle today. The problem with men being able to emotionally connect with women may not be new at all - it was just better disguised.

    Women's role and identity in society has changed, and @Forever_Jung is on to something about how men haven't figured out where that leaves them, yet.

    This brings me to the point where I agree with Zimbardo. As it turns out, a guy doesn't really need to accomplish much to support himself. Video games and porn offers enough positive reinforcement to counter the negative reinforcement he'd otherwise have for not interacting with women or pushing himself. Why take the risks that guys generally take to succeed when there are such easy and rewarding alternatives? The fact that it creates a cycle further limiting his abilities and likelihood to succeed is almost an after-thought at this point, and has already been covered in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I wonder why you guys are so invested in rationalizing that story?
    If Blank's sister tried to negotiate, has the same experience, and is performing the same job, then the boss is a dick and his sister has every right, and my encouragement, to look into legal action. But before jumping to that, it's important to make sure apples are being compared to apples. Right?

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