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  1. #231
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I appreciate Salome and Mane for sharing these videos. Here is the one Mane mentioned which is a response to Zimbardo's.

    [YOUTUBE="wSF82AwSDiU"]Gary Wilsom[/YOUTUBE]

    I believe it is definitely worth considering the real likelihood and consequences of addiction to the kind of novelty today's porn and gaming specialize in. I've been investigating the phenomenon in regards to the porn industry and these reinforce what I have found.


    *Edit: Some Posts Focusing solely on the pornography aspect of the "Demise of Guys" have been copied/moved to this thread: A Discussion on Porn, Intimacy, & Addiction. Please continue the focus on that topic over there*
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 06-18-2012 at 02:48 PM. Reason: edit for thread split
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  2. #232
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I appreciate Salome and Mane for sharing these videos. Here is the one Mane mentioned which is a response to Zimbardo's.

    [YOUTUBE="wSF82AwSDiU"]Gary Wilsom[/YOUTUBE]

    I believe it is definitely worth considering the real likelihood and consequences of addiction to the kind of novelty today's porn and gaming specialize in. I've been investigating the phenomenon in regards to the porn industry and these reinforce what I have found.
    Nice video. This one is infinitely more informative than the one linked in the OP (which is pretty much garbage).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #233
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    There is nothing psychologically healthy about porn. It's a conduit toward a drug called orgasm. And just like heroin, you use until the standard amount doesn't get you high anymore, so you use more. You can only do it so many times before your body needs a stronger stimulus, but the reward doesn't feel as strong anymore either, because orgasm has an upper limit. It's an unsustainable solution.
    I strongly suspect that the 'trouble' with boys has everything to do with poor, non-intimate familial relationships. Emotionally unavailable fathers and mothers who don't know what to do because they never had intimacy modeled for them by their own families.
    This creates a hunger, and boys seek to meet it by themselves so they don't have to seem needy and therefore feminine, because that is a terrible taboo in the west. So they find pleasure and soothing in porn, in private. If boys' emotional needs were better met by relationships, and allowed to exist in society, the draw of porn would be far less.
    So why do women not have these problems (if they originate in sub-optimal nurturing)?

    I think this is a bit of a cop-out. As indeed is the porn "solution". People from good homes also become addicted to heroin. That's why it's a controlled substance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #234
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It probably should be. I specifically put it in here because I wanted to have a grown-up conversation, rather than an "adult" one.
    Probably too much to hope for.
    I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive, in a thread about whether men overuse pornography there's liable to be some frank discussion of pornography. Most of the shitty aspects of this particular thread have been PG rated (speculation on the origins of your man-hating, for example).

  5. #235
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive, in a thread about whether men overuse pornography there's liable to be some frank discussion of pornography. Most of the shitty aspects of this particular thread have been PG rated (speculation on the origins of your man-hating, for example).
    That's not what the thread is about. It's just one of several explanations for the declining performance of boys/men, which is the actual topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #236
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's not what the thread is about. It's just one of several explanations for the declining performance of boys/men, which is the actual topic.
    I don't think video games are to blame for declining "performance" of men. I don't think men's performance is declining at all. Overall, men's "performance" has become increasingly woman-friendly over the years. For example, it's not considered ok to slap women around and lock them up in a room when they're misbehaving, like the old days.

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Of course a woman can be, like Marmie Dearest. But not you. You simply hate men and your supposed "love of men" is an act for the sole purpose of cloaking your hatred.


    Girls outperform boys in education because education has less to do with intelligence than it has to do with the ability to conform to a set of arbitrary rules. Girls are better at conforming. That shouldn't be news to anyone.
    i do agree with this...especially the current state of education, which has gotten dreadfully "teaching the test" which alienates various types of children; one alarming article said that kids are starting to show less signs of creativity now because of it

    I know I learned best when I sang (I also did this in college) facts I had to memorize, or did art or performance projects in conjunction with what we were learning, and am helped by visuals... If Se types aren't allowed this kind of sensory projects to make what they are learning come "alive" (and one of the reasons I suck at math and math-based sciences like chemistry but excel in biology and anatomy to the point of taking AP biology in high school but nearly failing regular chemistry) is because it was DEAD to me, is the only way I can explain it.

    I would guess with boys there are less Fe dom/auxiliary than girls, so yes conforming to please a teacher might be less desirable for a larger number of males. Combine that with surges of testosterone in high school, which has nothing to do with personality, and yes I can see how the current system, which has gotten more uptight even from my own childhood which is why I now refuse to teach, alienates boys in larger numbers.

    I also think ADHD is over-diagnosed.

  8. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i'm sorry to hear that. no, i can't relate to that. i guess there where times where i should have being afraid of injury, but i am not entirely rational about that - due to the proportions of physical size and somewhat reinforced by the army, i don't feel physically threatened by people. guns and bombs scare the crap of me, and cars, but not people, even if intellectually i know it's possible. so even though i relate to quite a bit of your experience, all of it except the dragging out part, i don't relate at all to the actual feeling, its not an emotion i can connect with.

    i'm also entirely open to the idea that your experience is worst then mine, so there's no sense of devaluing here for you to be concerned about. i am curious, would you say the sense of physical danger scared you more then the elements our experience shares? to what extent? and how, in itself? i do know it feels very lonely to feel defenseless in those situations even without being physically afraid, so i imagine it to be a combination of your own experiences like the army but without the sense of security stemming from your unit. also, did you find it difficult acknowledging that he is doing it while he is doing it too? constantly just making up excuses for him, not believing its really the person you love who could do that and just looking for what to blame like a bad job day and the economical situations? i used to do that all the time, and since i don't know myself to do that sort of thing it took me awhile to recognize it in myself, honestly not until a few months after the breakup, which was about 6 months ago in itself... how long until it started? how long did you stay once it did? mine only started that in the last 6 months... was yours a single parent? is there a sense of failure in not being able to take it to stay to protect the child? do you constantly have dreams about him hurting the child? what.. what do you do with those?

    i'm sorry, i know you don't quite feel we share a similar experience, and i know you introverts do this differently, process more internally, but.. there's so much on the emotional spectrum i have a hard time making sense of. i just remember things and see that doormat of a man that is just.. not me. nobody who ever knew me in real life before i met her could believe that thats me.
    ok well I have a mood disorder, and I knew early on, before he became physical, that something was not quite right with him either. We both have depression and anxiety, however our similarities in illness end there. He was physically and sexually abused as a child and I believe he has borderline personality disorder, with feelings of emptiness and extreme worship/devaluation I do not share. I am impulsive, but his emptiness was so ridiculous at times he'd shop lift for fun (as a grown man) or take pills. I think my perception of him as a person wavered less, and he saw me more as an angel or someone he didn't care about at all, depending on how sick he was at that time.

    He gradually became more comfortable with violence, starting with empty threats which I saw as nothing more than a mood disorder at the time, I just figured he said shit he didn't mean when he got mad (as I can, yet not to that extreme...) and it blew over. But then he started doing things like tearing up one of my books and throwing drinks on me. I stopped making excuses for him when he actually began hurting me, because I realized eventually he might start punching me. When he started crying one day, saying he was terrified of how he could hurt me when he was angry, how he felt utterly out of his own control, and then sorry later, yet refused to get therapy, I was OUT.

    When he wasn't acting nuts we got along super well, like could talk for hours, had a good sex life, and he was loyal, never cheated. He did nice things for me, and is smart, a near expert in underground cinema and world horror, I mean he could sit and read to me about old Italian directors like he was teaching a class. When I took film appreciation in college, the prof excused me from the final exam because I already had the highest grade in the class. Thanks, ESFJ ex!

    So yeah...that's how it happened. Very confusing, and I had to get therapy. I loved him, and he loved me in his own fucked up way, but he's a sick man.
    A sick man who refuses to get help, and that is what I blame him for.

    I even woke up screaming about a month after I left him. My mom thinks I had PTSD. Being in college really helped me though, it gave me something to pour myself into as I got over that highly dysfunctional relationship.

  9. #239
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Let me preface this by saying that I am a college educated, traditionally "successful" man who has no trouble interacting with (both platonically and romantically) women, at least superficially. However, I have noticed some deeper issues.

    Having grown up in the latter part of the 20th century and come into adulthood in the early 21st century, I have developed a distaste for women who want traditional husbands and families. I am drawn towards independent, confident women who count themselves among the movers and shakers of society. The thought of being married to a woman who wants to stay at home and pump out babies and tend to her garden sickens me. I didn't make this choice voluntarily, but my preference is strong and undeniable.

    Despite my modern tastes, I am still culturally conditioned, as a man, to be uncomfortable with being emotionally open and expressive. Consequently, I find myself in relationships where I bear the burden of her troubles as well as my own, without a comfortable outlet for me to vent. She is open with me about her hopes and her fears, and comes to me when she needs a shoulder to cry on. I am uncomfortable with reciprocating.

    Sexually, I have some anxiety. Women seem to be increasingly open about their sexual exploits with their friends (the ones I know); discussing with them intimate details and openly expressing disappointment with unsatisfactory lovers. Although I can not speak for all groups of men, I find such occurrences less frequent. Men talk about numbers, but generally leave out quality or specifics. From my perspective, there seems to be more demand for the man to perform, and the woman need only be in attendance. I would be perfectly happy dating and bonding with a woman who was not particularly adept sexually, but to the women I've talked with, sexual chemistry seems to be more important.

    I need to go finish up something else, so I may continue with this later. I just wanted to express a few things that might be relevant to the conversation. Infer what you will.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #240
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blank
    Of course I could mention Affirmative Action and that women entering certain professions don't have to meet the same requirements as men.
    Why don’t you? Is that something that happens in the US, because I’ve never seen anything like it over here. Pretty sure there is AA in some Scandinavian countries. There is talk of it happening here, but it remains just that - talk.

    In any event, it doesn’t account for girls/women outperforming boys/men in education. Or are you suggesting that it does?
    Yes, there is Affirmative Action in that women who are applying for the same jobs as men don't have to meet the same physical requirements, like becoming a firefighter or a member of the military. I personally don't care about the sex vs. sex aspect of this as much as I do about the inherent evils of Affirmative Action in that it counterintuitively reinforces discrimination while trying to end it.

    I also didn't bother to mention Affirmative Action because I believe women have legitimate concerns--just like men do. I believe women are discriminated against much more often, and that that should be resolved when it can. I'm just not of the opinion that any one group's concerns are inherently more important than the others' on the basis of sex. What bothers me the most is the double-standards many women display toward men. The biggest one to me is the balancing of a female's independence/notions of equality with the assumption of chivalry from men. However, it's not as though this can be rectified through legislation whereas as female-to-male wage gap discrepancies can.

    Let's say you're right that men were artificially propped up. If this is the case, then nothing has been done to ease the burden of taking the prop out from beneath him.
    What do you think needs to be done to “ease the burden” on men during this transitional period?
    I don't think there's one quick, easy solution that would fix all of men's societal problems in one fell swoop. One thing that definitely needs to be done is remove the stigma for a man to talk about and express his feelings without being considered weak, feminine, or gay. As it stands, it seems as though the gender role of males needs to be completely expanded or redefined, especially with the burgeoning of females dominating the education charts.
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