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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Is addiction ever a lifestyle "choice"?

    I guess we are working from the premise that addiction is not a desirable state to be in.
    ...yes, at some point in your life. in fact pretty much all arguments that it isn't a choice pretty much end up listing factors that influence people's choices.

    the point where it sucks is actually if you try to change that life style choice. normally, i'd find the act of smoking quite relaxing, yet trying to change that, i have being dealing with the resulting addiction for months on and off and i still loose the occasional battles, and you know who i have to blame? me.

    now, you might say that i am a victim of 18 year old me, who hasn't being around for nearly a decade, so why is it fair that current me suffers? well, that's the thing about actions, they have consequences, sometime good, sometimes bad, sometimes completely unknown to you at the time, they still are their and your responsibility. i might hate an apartment but signed a year contract. i might buy more then i can afford on my credit card and have to pay back the debt. even the content of the above conversation, exposing myself to a vulnerable position to abuse resulting from multi layered commitments i made to a women who i did not do a good job of getting to know well enough before, even when the consequences where unthinkable to me at the time, is my responsibility.

    like most addictions, online porn has certain disadvantages and advantages - and often most of those scale on long term vs. short term. but not all, because as described by many above, many might see decreasing their sense of urgency in hooking up as a positive trade off worthy of it, while others might decide to stop with it and see what happens (google tedtalk - the great porn experiment).

  2. #222
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    So what you're saying is that women have a civilising effect in the workplace?
    That depends on how you define "civilizing". I'm not even an anti-political correctness person, but I'm still aware of the impact that it has had, some good, some bad.

    Nice link by the way. Comedians are often a good source of overly simplistic reviews of a subject.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I guess the main problem Zimbardo was trying to highlight, is that if, as he argues, excessive exposure to porn and video games at an early age, when the brain is still developing, coupled with decreased opportunities to develop social skills actually damages a person's ability to function "normally" in later life, then that ought to raise some alarm bells.
    This could be said of almost all computer use. Even a teenager spending all his/her time programming will have issues like this (I have never been much of a gamer, but I did spend a significant portion of my teen years in front of a computer, and back then we used lynx and mosaic for web-surfing).

    Porn is a different issue, and is part of larger media problem of the objectification of women, and the creation of unrealistic expectations for sex for those who watch a lot.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #224
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I know some of these guys are too stupid to comprehend that a woman can be both a feminist AND a lover of men.
    Of course a woman can be, like Marmie Dearest. But not you. You simply hate men and your supposed "love of men" is an act for the sole purpose of cloaking your hatred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    In any event, it doesn’t account for girls/women outperforming boys/men in education.
    Girls outperform boys in education because education has less to do with intelligence than it has to do with the ability to conform to a set of arbitrary rules. Girls are better at conforming. That shouldn't be news to anyone.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    It does happen though. I have another story of this being the case.
    My brother was with an abusive woman for years...ofc it didn't start out that way.
    There were numerous occaisions where she physically abused him, on one occaision she stabbed him in the head with a fork, on another she bit his hand so hard it bled profusely and had severe bruising.

    Though there were many (many more than above) times where she physically abused him she also mentally abused him, the effect of which are so incredibly damaging. They linger far longer and are more destructive to ones own sense of worth.
    This is true. I have known men who were psychologically destroyed by their partner's emotional abuse. It can be harder for men to deal with this kind of abuse since they often lack the support networks that women have and it's just not the kind of thing they are likely to discuss with other men for fear of being seen as weak.

    I also have a friend whom I would class as a "battered husband". It's very, very sad that he feels he has to keep it all together, be the provider and the anchor for the family while she seems to show no restraint whatsoever. If the situation were reversed, I think most people would tell her to leave him. As it is, he feels he would be seen as a "deserter" and a failure if he were to move out.
    Yes, there are double standards that favour women too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Of course a woman can be, like Marmie Dearest. But not you. You simply hate men and your supposed "love of men" is an act for the sole purpose of cloaking your hatred.


    Girls outperform boys in education because education has less to do with intelligence than it has to do with the ability to conform to a set of arbitrary rules. Girls are better at conforming. That shouldn't be news to anyone.
    You sound very, very bitter.
    I feel sorry for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #227
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You sound very, very bitter.
    I feel sorry for you.
    Now THIS is projecting.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This could be said of almost all computer use. Even a teenager spending all his/her time programming will have issues like this (I have never been much of a gamer, but I did spend a significant portion of my teen years in front of a computer, and back then we used lynx and mosaic for web-surfing).
    Is programming addictive?

    I certainly don't find it to be.

    Of course one can become obsessively interested in anything, which is never healthy, but some uses of time are more profitable than others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    mumble,mumble projection mumble,mumble
    Heh. Do you realise the significance of your using the word "cloak"?

    No. I figured not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Is programming addictive?

    I certainly don't find it to be.

    Of course one can become obsessively interested in anything, which is never healthy, but some uses of time are more profitable than others.
    Programming was perhaps a bit addictive for me.

    One of the reasons I eventually left software engineering was that I had gotten too particular and ritualistic about my code, and this made it emotionally difficult to work with software written by others (It took a lot of energy, for me to not want to rewrite it). I then went into logic design, but after I got good at it, that same sort of obsession developed, so finally, I went into custom circuit design, where apparently that sort of obsession is actually somewhat more helpful...but even then, reusing others circuits brought the same emotional problems...so I got out of design entirely. Interestingly, now, I am far less obsessive about software itself (though if you were to ask about circuits, I probably would be..till a couple of years from now, hopefully).

    I think very few porn addicts can turn it into a career track of any sort. Though there was this fake documentary about a guy whose wife left him because of his porn addiction (but it turned out it wasn't the porn itself, but the fact that he watched it alone, and not with her). Perhaps the writer or director of that movie was a porn addict.

    Still, if Zimbardo had any reliable statistics about intimacy after prevalent internet use, I think the lack of general social contact is more responsible for the lack of intimacy than the porn use. Mainly because many of the aspects of pornography have been around, and exist independent of the internet.

    -----
    *Mod Edit: Some Posts Focusing solely on the pornography aspect of the "Demise of Guys" have been moved to this thread: A Discussion on Porn, Intimacy, & Addiction. Please continue the focus on that topic over there*
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 06-18-2012 at 03:14 PM. Reason: thread split, post copy and edit

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Programming was perhaps a bit addictive for me.

    One of the reasons I eventually left software engineering was that I had gotten too particular and ritualistic about my code, and this made it emotionally difficult to work with software written by others (It took a lot of energy, for me to not want to rewrite it).
    I always want to rewrite other people's code too. Mostly because it is so appalling...

    Still, if Zimbardo had any reliable statistics about intimacy after prevalent internet use, I think the lack of general social contact is more responsible for the lack of intimacy than the porn use. Mainly because many of the aspects of pornography have been around, and exist independent of the internet.
    I think those things probably feed each other in a non-virtuous circle.

    I think training oneself to divorce sex and intimacy (as pornography does) to an extreme degree might make it difficult to recombine them. At least, that seems to be the case.

    It's true there has always been porn. But the variety, access and acceptability has changed. In particular, for adolescents and pre-adolescents.

    But perhaps, as you say, this whole porn/gaming thing is a red herring. Men have been berated for having inferior social skills practically since the beginning of time. Perhaps it is simply the increased independence / expectations of women that is leading to them "strike out"? The more I think about it, the more this looks like the decisive factor.

    *Mod Edit: Some Posts Focusing solely on the pornography aspect of the "Demise of Guys" have been copied/moved to this thread: A Discussion on Porn, Intimacy, & Addiction. Please continue the focus on that topic over there*
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 06-18-2012 at 02:48 PM. Reason: edit for thread split
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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