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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @Mane I didn't mean to miss your post, thanks for sharing your experience, and yes being demeaned by someone you love does stay with you, its insidious.

    However I must say its worse, in my opinion, to be scared of someone you love. My therapist told me you know your safe person can't be your scary person. It causes an unhealthy stress level to love/hate someone, even more than simply hating them.

    My ex gave me whiplash, dragged me down the hall by my hair, and threatened me with other things, as well as putting bruises on my arm with a shoe, and throwing random objects at me.

    Id honestly be interested to talk to men who actually experienced that or worse at the hands of a woman. Actually being afraid or injured. I have friends who have been punched in the face or had bones broken, a friend of mine was stalked by her ex husband and almost killed. My mother has been in a coma because of being beaten, as well as being raped by her second husband brutally while they were separated he broke into the house, and she had bruises on her.

    Im not undermining your experience, but Im truly curious about these men who have been raped, beaten, or even just suffered minor injuries from women...or at least experiencing real fear as Zarathustra expressed.

    The thing that disturbs me is the possibility that a man could actually get in trouble for merely restraining a woman, that isn't right at all.
    i'm sorry to hear that. no, i can't relate to that. i guess there where times where i should have being afraid of injury, but i am not entirely rational about that - due to the proportions of physical size and somewhat reinforced by the army, i don't feel physically threatened by people. guns and bombs scare the crap of me, and cars, but not people, even if intellectually i know it's possible. so even though i relate to quite a bit of your experience, all of it except the dragging out part, i don't relate at all to the actual feeling, its not an emotion i can connect with.

    i'm also entirely open to the idea that your experience is worst then mine, so there's no sense of devaluing here for you to be concerned about. i am curious, would you say the sense of physical danger scared you more then the elements our experience shares? to what extent? and how, in itself? i do know it feels very lonely to feel defenseless in those situations even without being physically afraid, so i imagine it to be a combination of your own experiences like the army but without the sense of security stemming from your unit. also, did you find it difficult acknowledging that he is doing it while he is doing it too? constantly just making up excuses for him, not believing its really the person you love who could do that and just looking for what to blame like a bad job day and the economical situations? i used to do that all the time, and since i don't know myself to do that sort of thing it took me awhile to recognize it in myself, honestly not until a few months after the breakup, which was about 6 months ago in itself... how long until it started? how long did you stay once it did? mine only started that in the last 6 months... was yours a single parent? is there a sense of failure in not being able to take it to stay to protect the child? do you constantly have dreams about him hurting the child? what.. what do you do with those?

    i'm sorry, i know you don't quite feel we share a similar experience, and i know you introverts do this differently, process more internally, but.. there's so much on the emotional spectrum i have a hard time making sense of. i just remember things and see that doormat of a man that is just.. not me. nobody who ever knew me in real life before i met her could believe that thats me.

  2. #212
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Political correctness, while not technically a legal statute, is absolutely something that is derived from the fact that women are more easily offended than men, so men are now forced to act like women in the workplace.
    So what you're saying is that women have a civilising effect in the workplace?

    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The thing that disturbs me is the possibility that a man could actually get in trouble for merely restraining a woman, that isn't right at all.
    Right or not, true or not, many men believe this, and would act accordingly if physically assaulted by a woman (I would not consciously attempt any resistance other than fleeing/leaving).

    We could probably make a poll to see what portion of men vs. women on the site believe this to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    So what you're saying is that women have a civilising effect in the workplace?

    You're welcome.

    Nice. I think the PC card is played as often as the race-card.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Let's just say that the personal experiences of people on the forum always color what they say. She does sound misandrous to me, but may have good reason to be.
    Let’s just say that the personal prejudices of people colour what they pay attention to. Explain to me please, what is “misandrous” about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But that doesn't mean I discount entirely the value of men in my life. I enjoy their company and seek it out, and not just to "get rid of sexual feelings". They enrich my life.
    Or this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But if I were a parent or an educator or a policy-maker, I think I'd be concerned about the idea that young boys brains are being "hard-wired" to respond in ways that will disadvantage them everywhere outside of WoW...
    I know some of these guys are too stupid to comprehend that a woman can be both a feminist AND a lover of men.
    I really never had you down for one of those guys...

    Although it may be true that abusive and horrendous acts can be perpetuated by people of either gender on the other, IME, it is far more likely that a female on this forum has had something terrible done to her by a male in her life than a male having had something terrible done to him by a female in his life.
    And yet, here we have page after page of men who are complaining about all the horrible things women have done to them. Isn’t that amusing?
    You can rest easy. Nothing terrible has been done to me. And it’s really not an argument worthy of you. If you lads have to stoop to making personal attacks against Marm and I, it just proves to me that you are too emotionally invested in this topic to discuss it rationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was not that she was actually suggesting that women are superior, but merely illustrating the difference in how their collective "successes" are treated as a result of the assumption of male superiority.
    Thank you. I guess the point was lost above all the manly wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    I take a break from here and get used to debating with adults, then sometimes forget with what painstaking deliberacy one has to spell things out for this crowd...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Of course I could mention Affirmative Action and that women entering certain professions don't have to meet the same requirements as men.
    Why don’t you? Is that something that happens in the US, because I’ve never seen anything like it over here. Pretty sure there is AA in some Scandinavian countries. There is talk of it happening here, but it remains just that - talk.

    In any event, it doesn’t account for girls/women outperforming boys/men in education. Or are you suggesting that it does?

    Let's say you're right that men were artificially propped up. If this is the case, then nothing has been done to ease the burden of taking the prop out from beneath him.
    What do you think needs to be done to “ease the burden” on men during this transitional period?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #216
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Why is being addicted to porn and video games not a perfectly fine lifestyle choice?

  7. #217
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    Is addiction ever a lifestyle "choice"?

    I guess we are working from the premise that addiction is not a desirable state to be in.

    If you are asking is it a valid lifestyle choice to substitute porn and video games for human interaction - perhaps.
    You could say that the individual isn't likely to reach his or her potential, but how many of us do that?

    People with these kinds of addictions usually suffer from depression. But so do people without.

    The CNN article claiming there would be an entire "lost generation" is probably alarmist, I don't know how pervasive the problem is.

    I guess the main problem Zimbardo was trying to highlight, is that if, as he argues, excessive exposure to porn and video games at an early age, when the brain is still developing, coupled with decreased opportunities to develop social skills actually damages a person's ability to function "normally" in later life, then that ought to raise some alarm bells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Let’s just say that the personal prejudices of people colour what they pay attention to. Explain to me please, what is “misandrous” about this
    I was referring mainly to your early exchange with fineline, and the choices of words used, "tosser", etc.

    Like I said, you were raising legitimate points. But the language obscures those points. Even in this post, there is some of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I know some of these guys are too stupid to comprehend that a woman can be both a feminist AND a lover of men.
    I really never had you down for one of those guys...
    Is that really, what you think? That we believe that women cannot be both feminist and a lover of men?

    Let me say, that I certainly don't believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    And yet, here we have page after page of men who are complaining about all the horrible things women have done to them. Isn’t that amusing?
    You can rest easy. Nothing terrible has been done to me. And it’s really not an argument worthy of you. If you lads have to stoop to making personal attacks against Marm and I, it just proves to me that you are too emotionally invested in this topic to discuss it rationally.
    Well, it was not my intention to personally insult you nor marm. I apologize if I did.

    I'll admit, I haven't been running on little sleep, and had to retract some of the things I said based on the lengths I was stretching logic. That whole womb-envy/survival-of-the species thing was just speculation while typing. I regret taking speculation that far in an attempt to understand a point of view.

    But, can you honestly say that you tried to understand the points being brought up by those you disagreed with in this thread?

    In many cases, the language being used is an indication of how open-minded someone is towards the points that are being brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Thank you. I guess the point was lost above all the manly wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    I take a break from here and get used to debating with adults, then sometimes forget with what painstaking deliberacy one has to spell things out for this crowd...
    The word choice above, can come be seen as misandrous. You have, consistently, in this thread, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly characterized those you have disagreed with as not being adults.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  9. #219
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post

    The thing that disturbs me is the possibility that a man could actually get in trouble for merely restraining a woman, that isn't right at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Right or not, true or not, many men believe this, and would act accordingly if physically assaulted by a woman (I would not consciously attempt any resistance other than fleeing/leaving).
    It does happen though. I have another story of this being the case.
    My brother was with an abusive woman for years...ofc it didn't start out that way.
    There were numerous occaisions where she physically abused him, on one occaision she stabbed him in the head with a fork, on another she bit his hand so hard it bled profusely and had severe bruising.

    Though there were many (many more than above) times where she physically abused him she also mentally abused him, the effect of which are so incredibly damaging. They linger far longer and are more destructive to ones own sense of worth.


    He did not once involve the police or file any reports of any description.

    He is a tall man and athletically built too (bfg), and felt guilty just holding her back.
    The only time the police were ever called was when he did restrain her by holding her wrists until she stopped attacking him. Once she was calm he let go and she phoned the police, bruised wrists at the ready.
    Now he has a record.

    Imo men do not want to involve the police (in general) and yes there is a stigma that if a man is abused he is weak or unworthy.

    I also have a very close female friend who is abusive towards men she has relationships with. I have had many talks with her about it and in no uncertain terms explained my views. She needs, and gets therapy for this, but that does not justify continuing to behave abusively or make it any more acceptable. I believe the men should have called the police (or walked out for good, or poss both) and that she should have been prosecuted. I have told her this.

    I do understand that the sheer quantity of women that are abused by men is vast compared with the converse but this dosn't make it any less real or serious and women who are abusive should be held accountable.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I was referring mainly to your early exchange with fineline, and the choices of words used, "tosser", etc.
    We were discussing men who prefer to masturbate to porn than engage in relationships with other human beings. "Tosser", while admittedly derogatory, is pretty accurate short-hand.

    Like I said, you were raising legitimate points. But the language obscures those points. Even in this post, there is some of it.
    I like strong language. That doesn't make me a misandrist.

    Is that really, what you think? That we believe that women cannot be both feminist and a lover of men?
    I know that is what a lot of men think. The only reason I am called a man-hater is because I start threads like this one. Yes, it's irrational, but who says men always have to be rational?

    Well, it was not my intention to personally insult you nor marm. I apologize if I did.
    You did not insult so much as patronize. Jumping to the conclusion that any woman who would start a thread like this one must be in some way damaged by men is...highly uncalled for, to say the least.

    I accept that it doesn't come from a place of malice in your case, unlike some of the other contributors who do nothing but hurl abuse and insults whenever I post. In your case, it is simply a lack of thought, which is why you are worth engaging when they are not.

    But, can you honestly say that you tried to understand the points being brought up by those you disagreed with in this thread?
    Not only have I tried, I have succeeded.
    The only thing I can recall strongly disagreeing with is the woman in the video Blank posted.
    If you label individuals making personal attacks as "disagreement", then no, I don't try to understand it beyond the obvious conclusion that a raw nerve has been touched and the person lacks the maturity to respond in a more appropriate way. So I dismiss it as childish and ineffectual.... because it is.

    The word choice above, can come be seen as misandrous. You have, consistently, in this thread, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so subtly characterized those you have disagreed with as not being adults.
    Again, I don't see what this has to do with misandry. I can dislike one man or a whole group of them without HATING ALL men. I can also dislike what people do or say without hating them as individuals. Can't you?

    Anyway, let's try to move this beyond the personal, please. It adds nothing to the discussion.
    I am interested in how men feel, specifically, about this topic. I have learned quite a lot already that has been very educational, though sadly, not from this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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