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  1. #161
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    @DiscoBiscuit but its not the same, as Ive extensively pointed out, from a legal or physical standpoint

    further more third wave feminism is not anti-man or anti-sex and even embraces the changing of gender norms for all people - man, woman, trans, etc.

    But mens rights on the other hand is anti-feminist

    also, I think the women having more bachelors degrees is a myth - as of this February only 45 percent are women, unless that drastically rose in May by five percent

    which further compounds my suspicion this is all a bunch of bullshit

  2. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post
    Sometimes being treated equally necesitates being treated differently.
    Complex equality. You may get cool points for this.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    But mens rights on the other hand is anti-feminist
    Way to make up more stuff.
    Whoops.

  4. #164
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    this brings some very interesting questions that paint an amusing and disturbing picture, but i do not believe its so linear or simple as the TEDtalk suggests, because there are so many other factors that could and probably are contributing, and to understand the phenomena we need to first attempt to understand them.


    while evolutionary psychologists have a much different explanation, the feminist movement has often blamed their 'sexual oppression' on social pressures, and i think this notion that that in itself is a complicated phenomena that at the very least includes both explanation styles as contributing factors, would gain a lot of credit if we found that the same kind of 'fear of sex' can stem from social pressures regardless of gender.

    to understand this, first we need to understand how the human mind - regardless of gender - reacts to horror stories:

    the best example here is that within western countries, crime declines while fear of crime rises. why? the most plausible explanation is that media exposure is constantly on the increase and less local, so even though their are less crimes around you, you hear about more of them, because apparently this doesn't sell:

    which is why, even when their might be a lot less pedophile cases roaming around your neighborhood, you are that much more scared of it happening to your child.

    what does this have to do with the issue? well, men hear today a lot of horror stories about relationships:
    Social interaction with a woman in the work place can end in a career ending sexual harrassment accusation when you have a falling out and she decides to exact retribution.
    Social interaction with a woman on a date leading to a sexual encounter the woman regrets after can end in a life ending rape charge.
    Social interaction with a women leading to marriage and children ends in a divorce which results in your ex wife taking the house and a slice of your possesions and wealth, and leaves you with an extended obligation to support her with alimony and child support while she lives with the next guy, conveniently avoiding remarriage to leave you on the hook for as long as possible. Though child support is a legitimate obligation if you willingly and knowingly fathered them.
    I seriously doubt social interaction between the sexes has ever been great. Most guys were/are just jumping through a lot of painful socially mandated hoops to satify their sexual needs.
    At least its less bad now than it used to be when the societal norm was you had to marry someone for LIFE, the sex stopped being good about a week after the honeymoon and there then followed 60 years of ball and chain misery.
    Of course, that model was traded for one where women have acquired a nearly completely dominant position legally, socially and in the work place, which has resulted in a situation where is probably better for men in the long run, especially financially, to avoid relationships with women all together, hence the preference for games and porn.
    so it doesn't matter how small are the chances that these things would actually happen, how few women actually sue a flirting guy in the office for sexual harassment, charged an ex-lover for rape or faked being on the pill, men still grow up hearing those horror stories about how terrible it can be.

    if we accept that social pressure and horror stories about being left to protect a child without a protector and a bread winner has shaped female sexual attitudes in the past, there is no reason to think it wouldn't shape male sexual attitudes today.

    if so, would this trend be on the rise? let's break it down:

    prediction 1: Reproduction control would stabilize.

    why because even though new birth control methods for women - like the most recent day after pills - are constantly coming up, while there are currently incredible promising efforts taken by pharmaceuticals to be the first to invent the male pill, the very fact this sexual fear trend has being growing promises an increasingly larger market for such pills and a larger cultural impact, which increase the financial incentive and thus the research budget dedicated to the problem. from this, you could predict that the female monopoly over reproduction control is more like a balloon that will pop itself by pressuring a counter market.

    the end result? an increasing percentage of babies being born to two loving parents who want them and feel ready to have them. i'll welcome someone trying to argue that this won't be a good thing. but more to the topic, this also means a potential end to the horror stories of one-sided unwanted pregnancies.


    prediction 2: accepted sexual conduct will overcome anti sexual harassment laws as gen Y and X replace the retiring babyboomers.

    why? because while those laws where quite necessarily for women to gain a respected foothold in the work place in previous decades, if women are doing better at education, then no cultural bias towards men is going to save an employer from looking at lists of CVs with appropriate degree for the job and seen a list consisting of mostly women candidates, increasing the chance that she will be the one hired first, and the competition for potential male mates within the workplace and educational institutions would increase while the competition for women decrease. this is likely to further intensified if male if porn really has curved up male's sexual advances on women, and if men really do feel more anxious about the risks of sex.

    the result would be that the increasing portion of sexual harassment lawsuits would be of men against women rather then the other way around, eventually it would break the threshold of acceptability, and the perceived court bias towards believing women victims rather then male victims would be curved down, increasing men winning sexual harassment lawsuits and accelerating this trend.

    the result can go in two directions:
    - court cases increasing the threshold of evidence to what they consider to be an acceptable sexual harassment, decreasing the legal threat of approaching a women and curving down the horror stories.
    - after a stalemate is reached, the accepted and expected sexual language and signals would develop from both genders will grow faster while the portion of them covered by sexual harassment laws would grow slower and slower, allowing new sexual slang words to replace those that have being deemed unusable int the past. and yes, this can be as stupid as a new word for saying someone has nice [insert new slang word for body part] in a way which isn't covered by previous laws and is no longer considered inappropriate conduct (if you don't expect absurdity from the legal systems then you live in one awesome country).

    either one, the result would be an increasing wiggle room for legally accepted flirting, and less horror stories about flirting-gone-lawsuits.


    prediction 3: child custody bias will change.

    did we mention that women are doing better then men in higher education? good, but did we mention that non-educated jobs are increasingly automatized? within those brave uneducated men who overcome the horror stories and get to it anyway, stay at home dads are going to become increasingly more common until reaching a threshold of cultural acceptability.
    and in the following decades, some of their children (i presume mainly daughters) will be lawyers and judges and statesmen (no pun intended) & lobbyists, and they will be just as nostalgic about their childhood as those yearnings to the good old days (of higher crime rates) are now, remembering their great times with their soccer dad's, bringing in new countering biases to their respective influences over the system, laws and questions of custody.


    in summary:
    somewhere between winning the war for equal voting, WW2 and the microwave, the recent hits thrown at traditional gender roles have taken things out of balance, and its probably going to rock back and forth quite a bit until it finds a new point of equilibrium.
    this is not always nice to be part of, whether you where there to see someone else get the promotion because they are men or whether you are the poor fellow unfairly tagged as a sexual offender by one mean ex lover, or just part of the crowd fearing those consequences, social processes have their victims, whether your son wont get hired because of his gender or whether your daughter won't get the grant because universities will try to compensate, its probably going to rock back and forth for awhile and take new kinds of victims with it. this takes time.

    but i think that eventually a lot of those horror stories will be curved down, and so would the social pressure. its also worth mentioning that female percentages of gamers are on the rise last time i heard, and this factor will probably stabilize as well.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post
    Sometimes being treated equally necesitates being treated differently.
    Really...

    Would you please explain this to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @DiscoBiscuit but its not the same
    I'm tired of this have your cake and eat it too thinking.

    What harm is going to come from allowing a male equivalent of feminism?

    What's the problem with a culturally accepted counterweight to feminism?

    Hell it might even help us to rediscover male identity, and address the issues facing young men in this country.

    We have women's studies.

    Why not men's?

    further more third wave feminism is not anti-man or anti-sex and even embraces the changing of gender norms for all people - man, woman, trans, etc.

    But mens rights on the other hand is anti-feminist
    Third wave feminism was built from the second and first waves. They're all just an evolution from the same starting point.

    I'm just asking for the same right. To have our starting point. If you can't see why a man might prefer that to being rolled into feminism's 3rd wave... then I don't really have much more to say.

    Lastly, why must Men's right's be anti-feminist?

    We're not seeking to take anything away... How could we?

    We just want to let our perspective be heard.

  6. #166
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    HALP HALP 45 percent of people with four year degrees aged 25 to 50 are female, they're gaining on us! Hurry up and falsely inflate the statistic so we can beat them back down, because girls are stupid and will act out of the emotion of guilt instead of actually checking the statistics!

    /thread

  7. #167
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Really...

    Would you please explain this to me.
    Certain groups of people are born with privilege in relation to other groups due to historical, cultural, or socioeconomic factors. Things like women's groups, affirmative action, etc wokr to correct this imbalance.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    Way to make up more stuff.
    are you and Leger in vent doing a planned weak troll or what? A simple Google would expose you to the facts I expressed about patriarchal societies, and also enlighten you to the theory that has been used by Jungian analysts, not to mention early Greeks, and some especially uptight Christians. Of course facts that conflict with your personal world view must be "made up"! What are you, an Si dom?

    anyway, whether or not you believe mens rights is anti feminist is a matter of interpretation, but as some of the mainstream ones seem to want to do away with laws which protect women, and also advocate strange things like how women should marry younger (against their will, perhaps?) and inflate statistics t make themselves look more victimized than they actually are...

    As I say, my eyeliner wearing freely emoting teenaged nephew is doing fine both academically and socially in West Virginia of all un-hip places, so as far as I can tell, gender equality isn't that much of a threat to young mens.

    If anything is threatening young men, its actually macho stereotypes which promote male on male violence with weapons, which is nothing new, and believing the idiotic lie that young men are supposed to somehow be less mature than girls (also not that new, and even perpetuated in patriarchal cultures, enforcing responsibility on girls because of potential pregnancy.)

    oh and war, which most feminists are against

  9. #169

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    If you go back to the OP for a moment, it sounds like these are men suffering from the natural consequences of their choices.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle View Post
    Certain groups of people are born with privilege in relation to other groups due to historical, cultural, or socioeconomic factors. Things like women's groups, affirmative action, etc wokr to correct this imbalance.
    maybe his ancestors where Euro-Algerian slaves :P

    more on the point, fixes to imbalances create new imbalances that then need to be corrected in ways that create new imbalances and so forth, and various states of unfairness happen along the way. its not perfect, but its just how things work. the closest you can get to fairness is to live long enough to be on all states of the swing.

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