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  1. #121
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar7 View Post
    This is true. And wondering if they think through the repercussions carefully..do they consider the cost of not having the piece of paper vs. joining a blue collar job. Is it more difficult to sell ones skills or talent without the degree? Does it depend on ones natural drive and natural talent i.e. Gates, Jobs, Dell?
    Yes, exactly.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    A lot of guys don't stay in university because they don't see the point (they realize that they can make the same or more money in some blue collar jobs).
    this is an excellent point to raise...30 to 40 years ago hardly anyone went to college, unless they were either an intellectual who won a scholarship or were an average person from an upper middle or upper social class.

    Many entrepreneurs don't even need a degree to succeed, there are people in business and sales who either didn't need college, or went to college but their degree had nothing to do with what they made money doing.

    Then there is the blue collar work, as you say.

    I also wonder how many women with degrees are teachers or nurses, compared to the number of men with degrees who have higher paid professions. Nursing you can make money at, but teaching really does not pay well, and many teachers are women.

    There are so many factors involved in having a degree and what you do with it.

    Many women are simply incapable physically of high paying hard labor, but then we have waiting tables and the adult industry as alternatives...however Id like to know how many people, total, learn trades and have certifications to be a chef, an electrician, an esthitician, massage therapist, etc.

    I mean if I finish my degree I have no idea what good it would even do me, unless I went to grad school, which is why Im considering culinary as a trade, instead.

  3. #123
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    well. maybe if people and society as a whole stops focusing so much on cliches they can start looking at redefining what it means to be a 'man', a human, a member of a social, cultural, ecological, physical world. Our culture changes too fast to worry about defining things any more than is necessary to fuel further thinking and becoming
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Women are not oppressed by men, at least not in your country.

    Is it fantastical stupidity to believe that women, if raised the same as men are today, would still be peaceful, nurturing, motherly patriarchal stereotypes?
    ok look at the entire world...Ill wait

    did you happen to see similarties between men and women in Mexico and Russia, though they're a world and several cultures apart? How about the similarities of corsets in 19th century England and foot crushing in early China? Again...a world apart, cultures away...but the same underlying theme

    in fact the only true matriarchal or equal societies tend to be tribal and live close to nature...and not always even then, gazing toward parts of present day Africa

    yes, there is something innate to men and women, and we can be educated out of the worst of it, but not all of it

    I believe men fear natures power to bring life and death, and they equate women and their ability to give birth with the dangers of nature, which is why men fear women and take advantage of their own physical size in order to control them out of fear

    this thread reeks of that childish, primitive fear

  5. #125
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    well. maybe if people and society as a whole stops focusing so much on cliches they can start looking at redefining what it means to be a 'man', a human, a member of a social, cultural, ecological, physical world. Our culture changes too fast to worry about defining things any more than is necessary to fuel further thinking and becoming
    Where do I sign?

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    third wave feminism includes class and race elements as well as gender issues...it brought working class white women and women of color into feminism, so it was no longer just an educated middle class white woman privilege

    another aspect of third wave feminism is the right to choose... To be a business woman or a housewife, the right to ones own body, simply to make ones own choices without erasing ones sexuality, or desire to be a mother if it exists

    third wave feminism is actually more man friendly, in terms of saying men have the right to choose to be househusbands, to be sensitive, that men and women both have a right to choose gender roles

    however there was no addendum Im aware of that allowed for either sex to be irresponsible or dependent, which is what Im talking about

    and look back in the olden days when women remained plain virgin girls who lived eternally with relatives men wouldn't marry them, so why should men who are the modern equivalent of that expect women to sex them?

    I actually find the whole mens rights thing double standard-y and sexist, and just as biologically preposterous as some forms of second wave feminism

    why is feminism still necessary? Well just the other day I criticized a mans writing, and he started talking about my boobs instead of criticizing my writing or aspect of my character

    im all for making boys more sensitive and allowing them to choose their gender role, but I also think people have a right to sexually enjoy traditional gender roles if that's what they like
    I actually agree with a lot of what you and Salome are saying... one of your first points below (if I quoted everything I agree with, practically the whole thread would be here):

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    This whole excusing away the immaturity or putting low expectations on young men is a self-fulfilling prophecy from their external environment. It not only hurts males, but the females who have to put up with their lazy, dependent garbage.
    But you also say the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I expect more out of men, I don't settle for their baby boy syndrome shit, and applaud men who bend gender roles by WANTING to be stay-at-home dads or do housework (I lust after tidy men, though I personally probably wouldn't merge with a stay-at-home papa).
    Then should it not also be OK for men to not want to be stay-at-home dads? Whether feminist or those believing in traditional roles, I know of none in real life who would want a stay-at-home dad as a partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't buy the "womb-envy" argument at all. Women's value within society is inversely proportional to the number of children they spit out. (e.g compare women's rights in a developed country like France to somewhere like Nigeria, then compare birth rates).

    I have no intention of bearing children and I don't believe that in any way degrades my value as a human being.
    Well, I wasn't saying that women are actually valued for giving birth, and men for their sperm. I was just pointing out that biologically, those are the roles. Certainly a lot more energy and resources have to be used by the female of the species to give birth, than for a male to produce sperm.

    Anyways, it was a stretch of an argument in trying to understand a position. I was speculating, and I regret having gone that far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Something no one has speculated about is that we might just be finally seeing the natural superiority of women coming to the fore. Perhaps women are just naturally smarter, more mature, more responsible human beings and that accounts for their greater success?
    There is perhaps some truth to this. But it would have the same problems that the arguments made about men being inherently superior had.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  7. #127
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    But it would have the same problems that the arguments made about men being inherently superior had.
    ... or any argument made about group A being superior to group B does have.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    ... or any argument made about group A being superior to group B does have.
    Yes. Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Any time this issue is discussed, it's only a matter of time before she shows her contempt for the male gender. She can't help herself.
    Let's just say that the personal experiences of people on the forum always color what they say. She does sound misandrous to me, but may have good reason to be.

    Although it may be true that abusive and horrendous acts can be perpetuated by people of either gender on the other, IME, it is far more likely that a female on this forum has had something terrible done to her by a male in her life than a male having had something terrible done to him by a female in his life.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #129
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was not that she was actually suggesting that women are superior, but merely illustrating the difference in how their collective "successes" are treated as a result of the assumption of male superiority.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the point was not that she was actually suggesting that women are superior, but merely illustrating the difference in how their collective "successes" are treated as a result of the assumption of male superiority.
    Well, how a collective is reacting collectively to a collective situation is always a collection of contradictions

    I get the point. But, once we know how an argument is poor, there is no reason to return to it in a different situation just to be "fair."

    If you are referring to my comment about misandry. That has to do more with the words used. Wanker, baby, garbage, infant, ...

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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