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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Something no one has speculated about is that we might just be finally seeing the natural superiority of women coming to the fore. Perhaps women are just naturally smarter, more mature, more responsible human beings and that accounts for their greater success? Certainly, for most of history, when men were seen to far exceed the accomplishments of women, the prevailing assumption was that men were simply endowed with greater intellectual gifts. All sorts of inane theories were presented to support these assumptions, such as the one Marm alludes to - the greater brain mass of males. Many such silly ideas were taken seriously by men for over a hundred years (in spite of their greater brain mass). Yet now that the tables are turning, no one is claiming inherent superiority for women. I wonder why? Instead, there is a panic about boy's "under"performance; instead of concluding that the sexes have found their natural level, we find new ways to blame the "inadequacies" of women:- their teaching styles don't suit boys, they have made boys confused about their role, they emasculate men, they demand too much.
    All BS. The whole issue is about a failure to take responsibility and all the whining and deflecting blame is yet another symptom of that.
    ITT... idiots.

  2. #112
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @Blank actually you're the one who seems angry at women. Quite frankly, as I stated, I had a very strong father figure. I know strong and valuable men. I also acknowledge that there are some men on the fringes who need help, but those dudes can get psychiatric care just like a woman can. There's also job core training for people don't who do well in school.

    ALL people are looked at for their usefulness, male and female, so I don't know what you're nattering on about. You seem to be under the impression that cooking, raising children, scrubbing floors and the like isn't work, which will probably come as an angry surprise to the chefs, cooks, teachers, daycare workers, nannies, and maids in our society. How dare you suggest that women didn't do anything before feminism, and how idiotic to further suggest that a stay at home dad isn't working or isn't useful.
    Of course, while cooking, raising children, and scrubbing floors is work, being a homemaker is incompatible with the traditionally defined gender roles of men. So while scrubbing floors is work, it's work which traditionally offers no value to a man's identity. You can look at @Lateralus ' post about being a stay-at-home dad as an example of this. I'm not angry at women for any of this, I'm pointing out what I see and positing what correlations I can to a general "demise of guys." The difference between a man and a woman's usefulness is that a man is solely defined by his usefulness. A woman is not and there is much more help available for so-called "useless" women at the bottom of society than for "useless" men. (Note: I don't have an issue with this at all. I am stating it to further illuminate a point...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Seriously, dude? You're whining about Titanic? That was a HUNDRED years ago!! If that's all you've got to complain about I'd say you're doing ok. During the last shipwreck I can recall, in Greece, I think, not only was there no "women and children first" mentality, the bloody captain was one of the first to jump ship! Chivalry is well and truly dead, my friend. But if you ever want to find out about real inequality in the here and now, do let me know.
    Not really. I'm saying if faced with a life and death situation, I would take comfort at not having to sacrifice myself for anyone else, male or female. The Titanic was an arbitrary example of such a situation, which is unlikely to ever happen again due to the enforced rule of carrying lifeboats at 120% passenger capacity. This is a base grievance and it's not something I would care enough to actively fight over.

    Of course I could mention Affirmative Action and that women entering certain professions don't have to meet the same requirements as men. I could also list the conjectured rape statistics for men and point out that in many states there is no legally defined way for a man to be raped. However, the second you begin condescending any of these legitimate concerns, and advocate that women's rights are inherently more important than men's and should be discussed first, you're displaying your own bias and contempt.

    If a man does not adhere to the traditional way of being a man, he's often called a pussy, or a fag, or other term of emasculation. It is important to note that a man who acts feminine is considered worthless, while a women who acts either feminine or masculine is not.
    It is important to note it, but you have completely missed the point of why it is important. I can understand men not being happy about some of the changes in society. They have had all the toys to themselves for a long time and rather than share prefer to go and sulk in a corner. They've lost touch with reality to some extent. . .Those of you who grumble about society pressurising men to be this or that need to understand that the societies you complain about have largely been designed to artificially prop men up. The pressures on women are at least as great, as the old saying about Ginger Rogers goes, "She did everything Astaire did, but in high heels and backwards". Women have only made progress by challenging and rebelling against their assigned roles, are you really suggesting that men are incapable of doing the same?
    Let's say you're right that men were artificially propped up. If this is the case, then nothing has been done to ease the burden of taking the prop out from beneath him. Perhaps men can't change their assigned gender roles. But it seems to me you're taking a rather cavalier attitude about it--as though you're saying it's all purely man's problem and that they should work to cast away the shackles of their traditional role in society. But the data shows there's more to the problem if children in elementary school cannot compete with their female counterparts. I also think you're glossing over the ostracization men have historically endured from other men. Just having a penis was not a free pass into a boys' club of oppressive patriarchal glee, but that's not really important.

    The real question is, how do we get men on the fringes to adjust with this new form of gender in society, because let's face it, there is still a sizeable number of men who can thrive in it and they're not the problem.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #113
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @Lateralus hmm yeah your point is off topic...feminism is rooted in being oppressed legally by men, and men are not legally oppressed by women in a similar manner...males have an instinct to go to war, give me a fucking break, Im all for equality, but Im not for fantastical stupidity, and saying that women are war like such as men are, or men are mothers such as women are counts as fantastical stupidity
    Divorce laws in the US definitely favor women. Political correctness, while not technically a legal statute, is absolutely something that is derived from the fact that women are more easily offended than men, so men are now forced to act like women in the workplace. Whether or not you believe this is a good thing, you have to admit that it has had an impact on male psychology.

    It's not men or women who start wars, it's people with power who start wars. It just happens to be that, historically, most people in power happen to have been male. The poor go along with whatever BS excuse the people in power give them, and it's the expendable males who end up fighting, anyway.

    also, for any man who wishes for the "rights" to show supposed "lack of initiative"... Be sure you're exceedingly handsome, fit, well groomed, do my laundry, clean my house, cook my food, raise my children and perform the kind of sex *I* want on command...because this is what women do when they show a supposed "lack of initiative"...give me a break you sexist slobs, why don't you become a whore or a housewife and see just how "easy" it is, fools. Be warned that I also control your money, spending, and when you get to go out with your friends.

    Pfft.
    That's quite a rant. I'm not sure what that is about. From what I understand, the males referenced in the OP are not part of any sort of men's rights group. The males referenced in the OP have disconnected from this society, creating their own, and women are upset that these males are not turning themselves into "suitable" partners. I don't see the problem. If these males don't have what it takes to become a suitable partner, they won't get their DNA into the next generation, so they'll be bred out of existence. The ones who do have what it takes will get their DNA into the next generation. It's called evolution.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Hmm. If I understood Marm, and the "third-wave feminist" thing.

    The "there aren't any good men left" statement is a message that both those who want to return to old gender roles, and those who call themselves third wave feminists share.

    Am I wrong? If so, please correct me.
    third wave feminism includes class and race elements as well as gender issues...it brought working class white women and women of color into feminism, so it was no longer just an educated middle class white woman privilege

    another aspect of third wave feminism is the right to choose... To be a business woman or a housewife, the right to ones own body, simply to make ones own choices without erasing ones sexuality, or desire to be a mother if it exists

    third wave feminism is actually more man friendly, in terms of saying men have the right to choose to be househusbands, to be sensitive, that men and women both have a right to choose gender roles

    however there was no addendum Im aware of that allowed for either sex to be irresponsible or dependent, which is what Im talking about

    and look back in the olden days when women remained plain virgin girls who lived eternally with relatives men wouldn't marry them, so why should men who are the modern equivalent of that expect women to sex them?

    I actually find the whole mens rights thing double standard-y and sexist, and just as biologically preposterous as some forms of second wave feminism

    why is feminism still necessary? Well just the other day I criticized a mans writing, and he started talking about my boobs instead of criticizing my writing or aspect of my character

    im all for making boys more sensitive and allowing them to choose their gender role, but I also think people have a right to sexually enjoy traditional gender roles if that's what they like

  5. #115
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @Lateralus hmm yeah your point is off topic...feminism is rooted in being oppressed legally by men, and men are not legally oppressed by women in a similar manner...males have an instinct to go to war, give me a fucking break, Im all for equality, but Im not for fantastical stupidity, and saying that women are war like such as men are, or men are mothers such as women are counts as fantastical stupidity
    Women are not oppressed by men, at least not in your country.

    Is it fantastical stupidity to believe that women, if raised the same as men are today, would still be peaceful, nurturing, motherly patriarchal stereotypes?

  6. #116
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    A lot of guys don't stay in university because they don't see the point (they realize that they can make the same or more money in some blue collar jobs).

  7. #117
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    Oh and also men have less incentive to marry because they get free sex now, not because women are uglier.

    If anything women are better groomed than ever. Less than 100 years ago only "loose women" even wore make-up, folks.

  8. #118
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    and look back in the olden days when women remained plain virgin girls who lived eternally with relatives men wouldn't marry them, so why should men who are the modern equivalent of that expect women to sex them?
    Yeah, the olden days, when women remained plain virgin girls until they were married at the ripe old age of 13 and started popping out kids annually. lol. gud 1.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    A lot of guys don't stay in university because they don't see the point (they realize that they can make the same or more money in some blue collar jobs).
    This is true. And wondering if they think through the repercussions carefully..do they consider the cost of not having the piece of paper vs. joining a blue collar job. Is it more difficult to sell ones skills or talent without the degree? Does it depend on ones natural drive and natural talent i.e. Gates, Jobs, Dell?
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  10. #120
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Mod note: Deleted posts from a former member who (still) isn't welcome here.
    -end of thread-

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