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  1. #41
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    This is why I'm so thankful to be a feminist and a woman because I am excused from paying bills. It's really quite amazing. It doesn't matter if it is rent, the mortgage, groceries, medical bills. I just bring in the bill to the office and they facepalm and gasp, "Can you ever forgive me for sending this out to you!", and then I give them a flirty little wink and say, how 'bout you buy me dinner and I'll think about it? I even got a free house and car this way, plus all my student loans paid off. And I get equal pay for equal work.
    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post


    I'll have the white wine.


    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Rather than just joke about this, it is worth addressing because this is a completely subjective statement that reveals a personal bias against women which is not supported by statistical data. I can also look up what is current in Brazil, because the following refers to the U.S., but the latter is a country that prides itself on "equality" and yet...
    You have a point, Brazil is probably ahead of US (too ahead though).
    I generally avoid making points about gender equality/inequality, because the first reaction people have is ''omg dood that's prejudice yada yada'' and then they gang up to make the person look like a jerk.
    Anyways, I'll make my considerations.
    1. This article is in many ways defending "dead-beat" dads, but it is worth noting that "62% of custodial mothers do not receive child support. However, of that number, three-fourths of them simply do not want child support, have not asked for it, have accepted other financial arrangements instead of child support, or the father does not have the money. " http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/co...hp?content.282
    - The bolded have their rights, and if they aren't receiving money, that's probably their fault.
    - There are also women who become millionaires when they have children with the right guy.

    2. This article states that "Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997)." http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html
    I don't know how many of them are reporting those men to the authorities, much less the result of the delations, so I can't elaborate.

    3. This article states that "The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau." http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/census...aygapgrows.htm
    I think some people have the impression that employers out there select women and men for the same job and pay 755 dollars for the women and 1000 dollars for the men.
    I think a big reason why that income inequality happens is because women, on average, spend much more time raising kids and end up not having as much time to dedicate to their careers. But they usually have their husbands to back up them financially (which is reasonable and expected). Otoh, I'll concede that some people, especially elders, still don't think women are as capable as men for high positions. But that's changing quickly, I believe.
    And if what you say refers to Brazil in particular, then preface your statement to indicate this.
    Nah, it's fine that way.
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    why are they fighting in the first place? there is no law and little if any social stigma discouraging from wearing either. they're stupid to fight over it
    Actually, there is still some stigma (usually what is known as "slut shaming"), as exemplified here:



    "What were you wearing? 'Cuz, you know, miniskirts can totally make a normally well-meaning gentleman want to completely disregard consent and treat you like a fleshier RealDoll."

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    even so, my general opinion remains the same for most issues feminists argue about
    - expressing femininity vs breaking with gender roles
    - being a stay at home mom vs being a working mother
    - sex before marriage vs waiting
    etc

    I feel like lots of feminists are doing nothing more than trying to assign new gender roles to women and fighting over what those should be,
    Some of them do, granted. Which I think is not seeing the forest for the trees. The issue is, why are we judging women's character by their clothing in the first place? In my opinion, that's the crux of the matter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    wrong. Feminism has not lost its meaning just because its not specific enough for you. What you apparently fail to understand is that feminism is about each woman owning herself, and being free to be a mother, a prostitute, or a business woman, as long as she is empowered in making those decisions for her own self and not because she's been coerced either physically or socially to play a certain role, as if she is a child or a pawn in men's games.
    Jackpot, Marm!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    Well, actually there are places where is at least a little of social stigma. The Slutwalk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk) is a protest along the world which protests against explaining or excusing rape by referring to any aspect of a woman's appearance. But it isn't only about raping... Some people did state that those women who were raped or didn't want to be raped should stop dressing like sluts. As if dressing a certain way meant she was a slut or whatever (and therefore made raping "justified").

    Still, in São Paulo, I know there were some cases that a self-proclaimed feminist group that painted over less-dressed women on advertisement posters.

    So I guess there is some stigma, at least in some places.

    Still, I may not have made myself so clear, but in the OP I wasn't only referring to clothing, but to approaches to women and feminism...
    Ah, yes, I've heard - although some of the comments about the Brazilian SlutWalks show we've still got a long way ahead... :/

    Also, old joke: "If you rape a prostitute, is it theft or rape?"
    (Answer: It's #%*$ing rape. And possibly extortion, I guess, but violation of a woman's body first and foremost, IMHO.)
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  3. #43
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    wrong. Feminism has not lost its meaning just because its not specific enough for you. What you apparently fail to understand is that feminism is about each woman owning herself, and being free to be a mother, a prostitute, or a business woman, as long as she is empowered in making those decisions for her own self and not because she's been coerced either physically or socially to play a certain role, as if she is a child or a pawn in men's games.
    I guess I don't see what the big deal is, at least in America. there is no longer anything stopping a woman from doing whatever the hell she wants now, so why do feminist in this country keep arguing over pointless things with raging intensity? I don't need a men's movement to find my worth as a man, so why do women feel the need to have a feminist movement to give them value? I feel like feminist want to turn society into a giant women's support group or something, like they have for rape victims or drug addicts
    some women have haters because of the way they dress....like everyone else for every noticeable decision they make in their lives. for instance, there is WAY more stigma attached to a man wearing a dress than a woman wearing pants, skirts or anything else
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  4. #44
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    Still, in São Paulo, I know there were some cases that a self-proclaimed feminist group that painted over less-dressed women on advertisement posters.

    So I guess there is some stigma, at least in some places.


    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Ah, yes, I've heard - although some of the comments about the Brazilian SlutWalks show we've still got a long way ahead... :/
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  5. #45
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't need a men's movement to find my worth as a man, so why do women feel the need to have a feminist movement to give them value?
    This.

    Few months ago my SO told me an interesting story.

    There was a presidential election in Finland (one of the first countries to issue equal voting rights to women) and my SO was having a conversation with her female friend:

    SO: "So, you're going to vote?"
    friend: "Yes, I think so. It would be sad not to use the right to vote as a woman."
    SO: "What..? I don't think that's a good reason to vote. There's nothing to celebrate about that. It's self-evident that women should be allowed to vote. It's like celebrating we have air to breath."

    What I think about feminism is that it's an attempt to boost female egos, as if being a female is something special.

    As to the OP, the answer is not to give a damn.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  6. #46
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Oh.Fuckin.A.

    These threads always threaten aneurysm on my part. Perhaps I should get out while I can...

    But not before I go ahead and mention that men's second-hand experiences hardly count for anything when it comes to this topic, so please STFU already. AKA we have too many adolescent males on the forum these days. And no, in all probability you don't have any special insight on feminism.
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  7. #47
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I believe that there is still a real power imbalance as demonstrated in the gap between men's and women's salaries, as well as the ratios of men to women in major political and economic bodies.

    The feminist movement was useful in the past but, I believe, has become too invested in image and personal self-empowerment and needs to attune to actual, practical situations where women are still being held back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habba
    What I think about feminism is that it's an attempt to boost female egos, as if being a female is something special.
    I feel like this was not true in the beginning, but has become true in the last decade or so, in first-world countries.

    Devaluing men's identity or worth on the basis of women's perceived needs is a step backwards, not forwards. It can be something special to be a female, but no less special than being a male, or any other biological sex or gender identity.

  8. #48
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    You have a point, Brazil is probably ahead of US (too ahead though).
    I generally avoid making points about gender equality/inequality, because the first reaction people have is ''omg dood that's prejudice yada yada'' and then they gang up to make the person look like a jerk.
    Anyways, I'll make my considerations.
    Have you ever considered that when a person makes a misogynistic statement that it might not be the other people making them look like a jerk? "People making someone look like a jerk" means that they convince more people of that impression than would have had it without their statements. You feel they misinterpret?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    - The bolded have their rights, and if they aren't receiving money, that's probably their fault.
    My point is that statistically in the U.S. women who raise children on their own are more likely to pay their bills than to expect a man to do it. It is irrelevant whose "fault" or choice it is. You said that men pay the bills. I show one data set demonstrating that women pay bills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    - There are also women who become millionaires when they have children with the right guy.
    Ever consider why men aren't marrying as many millionaire women to make them "pay the bills". Could it be that women are not getting equal pay - and even more to the point they aren't hired for the highest paid positions very often in the first place? The fact that you have a stereotype that men are millionaires shows that you actually believe that men have more power than women. In this case there is evidence to show that most people in position of great power, influence, and wealth are in fact MEN. This is absolute proof of inequality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I don't know how many of them are reporting those men to the authorities, much less the result of the delations, so I can't elaborate.
    There were many more statistics in that link and the point was to show that women do not have equality in society as you casually stated. There are more laws to protect the concept of equality for the genders, but most violent acts are committed by men, and most women who have been harmed have experienced this at the hands of a man. Men have an expectation of greater power than women in society and this is expressed in a variety of ways. This was one example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think some people have the impression that employers out there select women and men for the same job and pay 755 dollars for the women and 1000 dollars for the men.
    I think a big reason why that income inequality happens is because women, on average, spend much more time raising kids and end up not having as much time to dedicate to their careers. But they usually have their husbands to back up them financially (which is reasonable and expected). Otoh, I'll concede that some people, especially elders, still don't think women are as capable as men for high positions. But that's changing quickly, I believe.
    "On average"? Back it up with data. The statistics that demonstrate inequality of pay are not averaging out all income by men vs. women. The issue is "Equal pay for equal work". Women working out of the home to raise children would not be included in that data set. You believe that the income gap is narrowing and hold that position even when there is evidence to the contrary? Your belief is irrelevant. If you disagree with the statistics presented you need to show more convincing data that your position is correct or else revise your belief if you have a commitment to correctness in your thinking.

    This is the issue with gender inequality. It still exists. Women are not in a position of equality with men in any country. Just do word searches on any of the subjects I listed in the previous post and there is a plethora of data to demonstrate this. The issue is that whenever a dominant group loses some power to a demographic who had less power, there are outcries that they no longer have any power. This shows that their inherent sense of power is to dominant quite completely. When they no longer have complete dominance, they cry out that they have lost their power and work to regain it. The misogyny of today is just one example of this process.
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  9. #49
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    The drive for equality can only be pursued partially by trying to change the behavior of the oppressors.

    Where real change is likely to be realized is in changing the mindset of the oppressed.

    "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt -

    Stop viewing yourself as oppressed or some sort of victim, and maybe.... just maybe, that will be more likely to change the behavior of others than bitching about the injustice of chauvinism.

    The only things you can control in this world are your actions and your behavior.

  10. #50
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Where real change is likely to be realized is in changing the mindset of the oppressed.
    ...
    Stop viewing yourself as oppressed or some sort of victim, and maybe.... just maybe, that will be more likely to change the behavior of others than bitching about the injustice of chauvinism.
    I don't think you understand the word "oppression". I'm also not surprised you use misogynistic language to make your point.

    Expecting one's mindset to change years of institutionalized discrimination is foolish and often dangerous.
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