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  1. #271
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There is no "cosmic definition". Sweden is a nation that has a strong feminist influence. I assume that if they have enough influence to change national laws in Sweden that they must not be radicals. Therefore, this must be a mainstream feminist policy in Sweden.
    What definition of "feminist" are you using in describing Sweden here?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #272
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @skylights

    Well, and it may be that you're not "seeing" the others because they don't speak as much at all. I consider myself a feminist given the definition I used above but I do not typically announce that - because in most social situations there is no reason to do so - nor associate myself with current movements because many of them don't seem to fit my style and beliefs. I think most of the empowered, compassionate young women I know would be feminists by my standards - advocating for women's equality. But it sort of gets hard for those of us who do see the need for more work to be done but don't feel in solidarity with the fringe who use the label "feminism" to take it, as I see it, too far. I'm sure the same issues exist within the black community and within other historically marginalized groups who seek greater social, cultural, and financial equality, as you referenced, the divide between the early styles of MLK and Malcolm X.
    Look I'm not saying that ALL feminists are bad, but I do hate the majority of them. I will say that they have done good things in the past, like giving women the right to vote for instance. They also do good things as well, such as protesting against the removal of women's clitorises (so that they can't feel hardly any pleasure during sex) in African and Middle Eastern countries, and this I am very glad about because I think it's just plain fucked up. Personally though, I can't see why we need feminists in America anymore though?
    I assume it's probably the diminutive nature of it that is offensive - we don't really go around calling men "pups" or anything. It's relegating women to something sweet and small, something of little consequence that hasn't been fully developed. I think it's all about those undertones.
    Now you are sounding like the rest of those feminist crazies that I know. Now it is coming out.

    I would think a feminist would make a better girlfriend. Who wants to date someone who doesn't believe they're your equal? I want a partner, not a lackey. But yeah I feel you if you mean an aggressive feminist, I wouldn't be into an aggressive male-rightist either. I'm all for men's rights and having men be equal to women in areas such as clothing, childrearing, emotional expression, and so on, but anyone who's not on board with equality and is too slanted to either side can take a hike.
    Yeah, that's just what I want...a feminist girlfriend. I can just see it now....

    Me: **Turns on radio and Robin Thick's "Blurred Lines" comes on.
    Feminist GF: Turn off that Robin Thick, "Blurred Lines" song, it's disrespectful to women.
    Me: Why?
    Feminist GF: They use women as pieces of meat.
    Me: I'm not paying attention to that. I just like the song.
    Feminist GF: Turn it off, or I refuse to date you! I will not have a BF that has such disrespectful attitudes towards women!
    Me: Sorry baby!
    Feminist GF: Don't call me baby! It dehumanizes me, and makes me out to be a sex object! I won't stand for it!
    Me: I'm sorry!
    Feminist GF: That's more like it.


    Yeah, I think I'll pass on a feminist girlfriend.


    Stats on this? Perhaps this is true in some ares of the United States and Europe but for much of the developing world it's the woman who bears the burden both in financial and social terms, and certainly with children. There are also still some cultural stigmata that apply to divorced women and single mothers both in most cultures of the world that men do not typically endure.
    That's bullshit, men lose their asses in divorces and the courts favor the women. This is an article on this very topic...

    Divorce court

    Also you asked for facts and stats, here are some...

    In America, men are forced to pay around 40% of their income to ex-wives, regardless of wrongdoing on the woman's parts (often called "no-fault" alimony).
    More shockingly still, a woman can simply accuse her husband of sexual or physical abuse (or simply express a fear of it) and instantly win a restraining order forcing him away from his home and children, without so much as a hearing. In fact, most divorce lawyers will advise a woman to do this, and those who do not can be sued for legal malpractice.

    And once she has the kids, the family court will be loath to enforce visitation rights for the father. All the mother has to do is ask.
    Consider this: statistically, the first person to file for divorce usually wins. While 70% of all divorces are initiated by women, 85 to 90% of custody awards go to the women. The numbers alone reveal the ugly truth when it comes to men: marriage has become a gamble in which the odds are heavily against us.
    Courts consistently refuse to lower child support fees when the father's income drops. Known as the "Bradley Amendment," this law forbids any reduction in child support arrears, even if the father is disabled.
    If a man remarries, his new wife's income can be used as proof that the man can pay alimony. If the ex-wife (and mother) remarries, however, not a cent of her new husband's earnings goes to child support. The court's rationale? They are not his children, thus not his responsibility.
    In California, if the higher-earning spouse, who is typically the man, is hurt during marriage and gets a monetary settlement, the court can award some of it to the wife even if he suffered all the pain and permanent loss of earning capacity.

  3. #273
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Yeah, that's just what I want...a feminist girlfriend. I can just see it now....

    Me: **Turns on radio and Robin Thick's "Blurred Lines" comes on.
    Feminist GF: Turn off that Robin Thick, "Blurred Lines" song, it's disrespectful to women.
    Me: Why?
    Feminist GF: They use women as pieces of meat.
    Me: I'm not paying attention to that. I just like the song.
    Feminist GF: Turn it off, or I refuse to date you! I will not have a BF that has such disrespectful attitudes towards women!
    Me: Sorry baby!
    Feminist GF: Don't call me baby! It dehumanizes me, and makes me out to be a sex object! I won't stand for it!
    Me: I'm sorry!
    Feminist GF: That's more like it.


    Yeah, I think I'll pass on a feminist girlfriend.
    I wouldn't call that imaginary person feminist. I'd call her a self-righteous bitch.
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  4. #274
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I wouldn't call that imaginary person feminist. I'd call her a self-righteous bitch.
    Maybe so, but this is what the majority of the feminists that I come across are like.

  5. #275
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Maybe so, but this is what the majority of the feminists that I come across are like.
    What I'm saying is that those people actually aren't feminists. They just think they are.

    It also made me think of this, and I think you'll appreciate it. The ironic part is that it was made as a joke and these so called "feminists" saw it and thought it was serious.
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  6. #276
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    What I'm saying is that those people actually aren't feminists. They just think they are.

    It also made me think of this, and I think you'll appreciate it. The ironic part is that it was made as a joke and these so called "feminists" saw it and thought it was serious.
    Oh yeah, they're feminists. It just appears that they are the "radical" variety of feminists. Oh and I already saw that info in my book. Yeah, they had a page that had all of that information on it about how "privileged" you are in society or whatever.

  7. #277
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    @skylightsLook I'm not saying that ALL feminists are bad, but I do hate the majority of them. I will say that they have done good things in the past, like giving women the right to vote for instance. They also do good things as well, such as protesting against the removal of women's clitorises (so that they can't feel hardly any pleasure during sex) in African and Middle Eastern countries, and this I am very glad about because I think it's just plain fucked up. Personally though, I can't see why we need feminists in America anymore though?
    There are still some frontiers to be addressed. Women still have little representation in the upper echelons of politics, for example. But I think the real answer is that there's no reason why all women shouldn't be feminists in the sense of advocating women's equality. There's also no reason why all men shouldn't be advocates of male equality, either. Moreover - we all should be advocates of everyone's equality.

    Now you are sounding like the rest of those feminist crazies that I know. Now it is coming out.
    Well, that's a little nasty, TGO. I'm trying to talk with you rationally, and I try to be on both men's and women's sides in this - I want equality for everyone. I don't want to see women or men marginalized. And I'm interested in having this discussion with you because I think it's good to have people from both sides talking about it to bridge the gap in understanding, and you seem like a generally reasonable and friendly male to me. Why are you trying to belittle me and question my sanity instead of logically debating my points?

    Yeah, that's just what I want...a feminist girlfriend. I can just see it now....

    Me: **Turns on radio and Robin Thick's "Blurred Lines" comes on.
    Feminist GF: Turn off that Robin Thick, "Blurred Lines" song, it's disrespectful to women.
    Me: Why?
    Feminist GF: They use women as pieces of meat.
    Me: I'm not paying attention to that. I just like the song.
    Feminist GF: Turn it off, or I refuse to date you! I will not have a BF that has such disrespectful attitudes towards women!
    Me: Sorry baby!
    Feminist GF: Don't call me baby! It dehumanizes me, and makes me out to be a sex object! I won't stand for it!
    Me: I'm sorry!
    Feminist GF: That's more like it.


    Yeah, I think I'll pass on a feminist girlfriend.
    It's a catchy song, I like it in that respect. I mean, I really don't have any say in who you date, and it doesn't really matter. I love when my boyfriend opens doors for me and some women might balk at that. But I think there's just a certain amount of needing to call a spade a spade. Blurred Lines is shitty to women in certain ways. I don't see why it should be problematic to point it out. It doesn't mean you can't listen to it... just means you acknowledge it for what it is, that you acknowledge that double standards exist. I acknowledge that it's not fair for women to not be expected to open doors for men if women expect men to open doors for them.

    I think that's the biggest struggle I have with guys who are really against feminism. It's like a lot of guys refuse to acknowledge that the average (first world) woman faces any inequality in her life due to her gender, yet there are so many women saying otherwise. It feels oppressive to have the group who is already privileged not only not acknowledge inequalities, but then to say that they're the ones being hurt by women's attempts to restore equality. I absolutely 100% believe that some women take that too far, yes, and I believe they have legitimately hurt men as a group. But I do also believe that there are legitimate inequalities against women, even in first world countries, and I can't even begin to communicate the level of frustration that results from a man who is unwilling to even consider if I have experienced real inequality in my life.

    That's bullshit, men lose their asses in divorces and the courts favor the women. This is an article on this very topic...
    I was kind of hoping for something a little more scholarly than askmen.com, but again, I already acknowledge that it could be skewed towards women in first world countries. I actually have a male friend who has struggled with it to gain custody of his daughters from his batty ex-wife, and I wish it hadn't been hard for him. But India? Subsaharan Africa? Saudi Arabia? This lawyer - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3733399.html - also makes the good point that law is mainly based on precedent, and precedent has been men transgressing against women and not being interested in childrearing, so the bulk of past legislation has been focused on dealing with male truancy.

    Again though - why say that there is no inequality across the board? Why not just be open to the possibility that inequality may exist, and deal with it on a case-by-case basis? As a woman I do acknowledge that there may be inequality against men in certain situations. Why do some men struggle so much to acknowledge the same for women?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I wouldn't call that imaginary person feminist. I'd call her a self-righteous bitch.
    Yeah, it's one thing to point out that it has some disparaging content and another thing to throw a fit and demand that you change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I really wish people would stop acting like the plight of women in third world countries is in any way the same as the plight of women in the US.
    There are both similarities and differences. At this point in time I would wager the differences have eclipsed the similarities, but that is not to say that similarities do not still exist. I'm not sure why that is a particularly important focus, though. Certainly grave injustices should be considered a higher priority but all inequalities which limit women should be addressed regardless of their gravity.

    I guess my main point in general is I am so confused why it seems to be a threat to men to have women say they are being treated unequally.

  8. #278
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Oh, is it one of these debates now? I thought this thread was meant to be lighthearted.

    Well, for what it's worth, there are a fair number of books at my bookstore about how men are: Obsolete or a gender on the decline. I realize the extreme titles are designed to sell copies, but still. Ouch. These are mainstream titles, with mainstream feminist writers weighing in.

    It's interesting that when people recognize a trend like boys/men not adjusting well to society, we just decide to blame the inherent shittiness of the male gender.

    I'm not saying women are completely equal in every way, and everything is fine, but c'mon. Now we're just being silly.

    Edit: In a way, I think it's almost misogynistic (not the right word, but you know), to give men so much credit for their own failings. It's like people can't fathom men being the victims of something systemic, because men forge their own destinies.

  9. #279
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @skylights

    Well, that's a little nasty, TGO. I'm trying to talk with you rationally, and I try to be on both men's and women's sides in this - I want equality for everyone. I don't want to see women or men marginalized. And I'm interested in having this discussion with you because I think it's good to have people from both sides talking about it to bridge the gap in understanding, and you seem like a generally reasonable and friendly male to me. Why are you trying to belittle me and question my sanity instead of logically debating my points?
    Ok I apologize. I consider you a good friend of mine on this site, and I guess that was uncalled for. However, I must say that the feminism that I have been exposed to has left a VERY bad taste in my mouth and it's hard to get over that.

    It's a catchy song, I like it in that respect. I mean, I really don't have any say in who you date, and it doesn't really matter. I love when my boyfriend opens doors for me and some women might balk at that. But I think there's just a certain amount of needing to call a spade a spade. Blurred Lines is shitty to women in certain ways. I don't see why it should be problematic to point it out. It doesn't mean you can't listen to it... just means you acknowledge it for what it is, that you acknowledge that double standards exist. I acknowledge that it's not fair for women to not be expected to open doors for men if women expect men to open doors for them.

    I think that's the biggest struggle I have with guys who are really against feminism. It's like a lot of guys refuse to acknowledge that the average (first world) woman faces any inequality in her life due to her gender, yet there are so many women saying otherwise. It feels oppressive to have the group who is already privileged not only not acknowledge inequalities, but then to say that they're the ones being hurt by women's attempts to restore equality. I absolutely 100% believe that some women take that too far, yes, and I believe they have legitimately hurt men as a group. But I do also believe that there are legitimate inequalities against women, even in first world countries, and I can't even begin to communicate the level of frustration that results from a man who is unwilling to even consider if I have experienced real inequality in my life.
    1)To tell you the truth, I really don't think that there is that much of an imbalance IN AMERICA between the power that men and women have. I think that feminists just really milk that it's all it's worth, when there's really not that much to milk anymore. It used to be a HUGE issue in America, but not so much anymore IMO.

    2) Did you know that they did a feminist parody of "Blurred Lines"? I personally, wasn't a big fan of it, but you would probably enjoy it..




    I was kind of hoping for something a little more scholarly than askmen.com, but again, I already acknowledge that it could be skewed towards women in first world countries. I actually have a male friend who has struggled with it to gain custody of his daughters from his batty ex-wife, and I wish it hadn't been hard for him. But India? Subsaharan Africa? Saudi Arabia? This lawyer - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3733399.html - also makes the good point that law is mainly based on precedent, and precedent has been men transgressing against women and not being interested in childrearing, so the bulk of past legislation has been focused on dealing with male truancy.

    Again though - why say that there is no inequality across the board? Why not just be open to the possibility that inequality may exist, and deal with it on a case-by-case basis? As a woman I do acknowledge that there may be inequality against men in certain situations. Why do some men struggle so much to acknowledge the same for women?
    All of the information in that article is from credible sources.

    I guess my main point in general is I am so confused why it seems to be a threat to men to have women say they are being treated unequally.
    I will tell you why....because people take "freedom fighting" and justice TOO far. I mean, look at just 15 years ago, during this time you very rarely saw anyone being socially outcasted or destroying their career because they said one silly comment that offended large groups of people. However, now you see this sort of thing all the time. In 2006, Michael Richards from "Seinfeld" got really mad at some African Americans and used the N word and his career was just about instantaneously destroyed. Then, roll the clock forward to 2007, Don Imus said called some Rutgers basketball players, "Nappy Headed Hoes" as a joke and basically had his career destroyed by Al Sharpton and crew. Luckily Don Imus was able to fight back and eventually got his radio show back, but it came VERY close to butchering his career. Then, we have Alec Baldwin who said some type of Anti-gay slur last year and they instantly canceled his new TV show. After that, there was Paula Deen who also used the N word, and she lost just about every one of her sponsors and they canceled her TV show. Finally, just last week Stephen Colbert tweeted a harmless Asian joke and now everyone is calling for the Colbert show to be canceled. The bottom line is, if the feminists keep going, I doubt that we will even be able to show rappers with hot women gallivanting around them because then society will label that "oppressive" to women as well. If America doesn't quit, it's almost gonna be like we all have to just whisper in each other's ears anymore when we want to say something because everyone is so afraid to offend someone now-a-days. When do we as a America draw the line on this shit?

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