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  1. #221
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Most people tend to have their gender identity correlate with their biological sex, but that's no reason to normalize it (which only serves to dehumanize trans people).

    The only reason that men do most of the killing is the same reason that men are mostly being killed: oppressive gender roles that force men into overly aggressive societal standards, and say that women should stay home and nurture.
    Sorry, but yes it is; 'normalizing' gender identity with biological sex serves the psychological and practical needs of the overwhelmingly vast majority of people, much like 'normalizing' typical sense perception has better societal (and almost always better individual) results than preoccupation with minimizing the relative alienation/handicap of the few people with synesthesia. Improving the circumstances and opposing the dehumanization of atypical individuals is praiseworthy, but doing so at the expense of everyone else's socialization is counterproductive for everyone, and unnecessary for the goal in question.

    I'm pretty sure different levels of testosterone, etc. has more than a little to do with it....given identical socialization, the typical male is likely to be more agressive and less nurturing than the typical female. That said, historical gender roles grossly exaggerate biological predispositions/specializations.

  2. #222
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Mostly I see both men and women cherry picking what they want and don't want according to their own selfish agenda. They pick some things that are feminist ideals and some that are traditional type ideals. So, I don't take anyone seriously, really.

    The only time I'm bothered is when someone is not minding their own business and trying to force me to stop doing what I like to do, so I can do something that they like to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    First of all, I don't know much of feminism of it's history, but I was curious of what you people would say.

    Thinking of a "feminist" way of dressing, a woman should wear pants, because she thinks showing too much skin would please men, and she doesn't want to take part in a machist world pleasing some random men on the street.

    Or she could wear a mini-skirt, because she has the right to show the amount of skin she wants, without asking permission or whatever. Besides, she could get some attention or favours from men.

    It does happen that some men spend lots of money with women who do an "easy" task as taking clothes off - one could interpret that men get stupid and powerless (and poor) in front a pretty woman who shows some skin. Or that woman could be humiliating herself just to get some money.

    I'm saying "pants" and "mini-skirt" just as examples of clothes that show or not much skin, but other ways of dressing could fit here.

    I've seen women fighting for both causes, for "pants" and for "mini-skirts", and both claiming to be feminist. What do you think?

  3. #223
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @raine_lynn

    I stumbled across this and remembered how you were asking about evidence of domestic violence against men. this clip cites a few studies.

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  4. #224
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    @Elfboy
    Oh, no, I totally believe that domestic violence happens against men - I don't recall ever suggesting otherwise, but if I did, then I apologize for letting my dogma get in the way. Admittedly I didn't watch the video, since I'm only checking the forum before I go out of town, but IIRC mostly DV against men happens in homosexual relationships (where of course both the perpetrator and the victim are men) rather than heterosexual relationships, but it does occur in both situations.

    However, the reason this is a problem once again comes down to oppressive gender roles in our society - if men weren't seen as the strong and violent ones, then there would be less of a stigma against male victims; more could come forward, and there would be a push against all forms of domestic violence.

    Personally, I'm far more invested in getting victims help than in perpetuating a culture where only certain concerns are seen as valid. This goes both directions - of course I'm interested in women's rights, but also the rights of men, and (importantly) the rights of those who don't fall into either category very clearly. I want to help everyone.
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  5. #225
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    @Elfboy
    Oh, no, I totally believe that domestic violence happens against men - I don't recall ever suggesting otherwise, but if I did, then I apologize for letting my dogma get in the way. Admittedly I didn't watch the video, since I'm only checking the forum before I go out of town, but IIRC mostly DV against men happens in homosexual relationships (where of course both the perpetrator and the victim are men) rather than heterosexual relationships, but it does occur in both situations.
    However, the reason this is a problem once again comes down to oppressive gender roles in our society - if men weren't seen as the strong and violent ones, then there would be less of a stigma against male victims; more could come forward, and there would be a push against all forms of domestic violence.
    Personally, I'm far more invested in getting victims help than in perpetuating a culture where only certain concerns are seen as valid. This goes both directions - of course I'm interested in women's rights, but also the rights of men, and (importantly) the rights of those who don't fall into either category very clearly. I want to help everyone.
    - I was never under the impression you were denying it
    - when you look at numbers (one of studies in the video claims that as much as 53% of domestic violence victims are men! and this study is not biased because the study actually omits it from the summary of it's findings and only includes it in the fully report) it's unlikely that the majority of men suffering from domestic violence are in homosexual relationships
    - I still think your gut fix is 1w2 =)
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  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by earthtrekker1775 View Post
    Women should wear whatever they like. I have several opinions on the feminist movement, but I won't share them here.
    Oh sure,women should be "allowed" to wear whatever they want,and indeed now they have,that even in the office we all see miniskirts as pretty common.But what about us guys?why are shortpants still not allowed?What difference is our leg skin from yours?Why do women get the comfort or versatility of doing something like that,while men are denied the equivalent of the same?The fact that fashion for men still hasnt developed much on short pants formal is also a mark of such an inequality that no one bothers to address.

  7. #227
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    I say mini skirts! I see wearing mini skirts as a sign that you're standing up to conservative oppression. Fuck conservatives and their fear of skin.
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  8. #228
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Depends on which one makes you more irritating and disagreeable.
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  9. #229
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabrizzo View Post
    Oh sure,women should be "allowed" to wear whatever they want,and indeed now they have,that even in the office we all see miniskirts as pretty common.But what about us guys?why are shortpants still not allowed?What difference is our leg skin from yours?Why do women get the comfort or versatility of doing something like that,while men are denied the equivalent of the same?The fact that fashion for men still hasnt developed much on short pants formal is also a mark of such an inequality that no one bothers to address.
    Here's an idea:

    Brazilian man skirts shorts ban

    I bet @Nicodemus approves

  10. #230
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    If a feminist gets to the point of deciding which clothes make her/him more feminist, she/he is trying too hard.

    Pants symbolize female equality while a miniskirt symbolizes female superiority, so ideally the former, but historically the latter.

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