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  1. #191
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We don't seem to be on the same page.

    Here, sex work is legal. Sex work is legal and regulated. Sex work is regulated for health and safety, to keep out underage sex workers, and to stop sex slavery.

    So here it is legal and regulated to sell and buy sex.

    We do though have a movement to criminalise the buying of sex but not to criminalise the selling of sex.

    And yes, it is creepy that your father and your brothers have power over sex workers - why not join the movement to limit the power of your father and brothers over sex workers, unless you have another agenda.
    [Edit- I was going to cite the Swedish system, but that has been done already.]

    However, I don't think that is the answer. Sex work can be a mutually beneficial and satisfying arrangement for both parties. As long as we have a system of buying and selling goods and services, sex will be in there somewhere and it will work well for some people and be damaging for others. Limiting freedom is not the answer. We need to educate and empower people to love and respect themselves and each other. I think conflict resolution should be part of the school curriculum.

  2. #192
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gish View Post
    I bet feminists are just jealous they can't easily piss their name in the snow.
    I bet men are jealous they don't have boobs they can touch all day.

  3. #193
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    This. It is not the job of the marginalized group to educated the privileged group. Derailing much?
    True, but if someone is going to express an opinion in an attempt to persuade someone, it is their responsibility to add evidence and logical explanation if it is asked for (burden of proof). Different people are persuaded by different things; the people who are persuaded by data need data and the people who are persuaded by logic need logic. People who are persuaded by some sort of emotion need to understand this if they expect to persuade anyone of their opinions. Just saying. I don't necessarily disagree with you.

  4. #194
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    True, but if someone is going to express an opinion in an attempt to persuade someone, it is their responsibility to add evidence and logical explanation if it is asked for (burden of proof). Different people are persuaded by different things; the people who are persuaded by data need data and the people who are persuaded by logic need logic. People who are persuaded by some sort of emotion need to understand this if they expect to persuade anyone of their opinions. Just saying. I don't necessarily disagree with you.
    I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you've already noticed that I posted a couple of links a few pages back. But this is a derailing technique that I commonly see in situations like these (I was fortunately surprised here) so I felt the need to call it out.
    4w5-1w2-5w4 -- RLUAI -- Chaotic Good/Neutral

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  5. #195
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    But this isn't female privilege, because there are no women in power making the decision to not require/allow women to serve in the military. The rationale for this comes from outdated gender roles and are based in a patriarchal society.
    I agree with women not being required to serve in the military. I think these gender roles have merit if they are chosen, they just shouldn't be forced. Certainly we have too many children in the world and don't need more, but if they are going to be born and raised they need a mother to be able to stay home with them if she chooses. The fact that women have to work to support their children is a problem in my opinion because capitalism/industrialization which necessitates this wants to make everything a commodity to be bought and sold; and raising children is not directly profitable. This uniquely female quality is consequently devalued because it doesn't have a price tag. Women do have to work to raise children if they are single, and they should be able to. But it is not so simple. I think if you are going to have a child you should be prepared to breastfeed it, which means if you are doing it optimally you will be doing it approximately every half hour at the most. Which means staying home. Compromises of pumping breast milk are acceptable and probably the only practical option, but not ideal. If you are so attached to your career that you have to give your baby formula, or only breastfeed it for like 1 or 2 months, you should wait to have children in my opinion. Women and men have unique strengths and weaknesses, and our differences should be celebrated. Many women make great warriors, and many men are wonderful at traditionally feminine things- but only women have babies, and killing a woman in a military situation is kind of like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. We create life, so we should be preserved. Personally I don't think anyone should have to serve in the military. Let the ones who want war fight in it.

    But I'm a tribal primitivist.

    *Sorry I think I've digressed entirely from the OP, but I see it has evolved into general feminism.

  6. #196
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Certainly we have too many children in the world and don't need more, but if they are going to be born and raised they need a mother to be able to stay home with them if she chooses. The fact that women have to work to support their children is a problem in my opinion because capitalism/industrialization which necessitates this wants to make everything a commodity to be bought and sold; and raising children is not directly profitable. This uniquely female quality is consequently devalued because it doesn't have a price tag. Women do have to work to raise children if they are single, and they should be able to. But it is not so simple. I think if you are going to have a child you should be prepared to breastfeed it, which means if you are doing it optimally you will be doing it approximately every half hour at the most. Which means staying home. Compromises of pumping breast milk are acceptable and probably the only practical option, but not ideal. If you are so attached to your career that you have to give your baby formula, or only breastfeed it for like 1 or 2 months, you should wait to have children in my opinion. Women and men have unique strengths and weaknesses, and our differences should be celebrated. Many women make great warriors, and many men are wonderful at traditionally feminine things- but only women have babies, and killing a woman in a military situation is kind of like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. We create life, so we should be preserved. Personally I don't think anyone should have to serve in the military. Let the ones who want war fight in it.
    So much ignorance. If staying home with a new baby is a mother's choice, it is not a real need of the baby (and it is not). Caring for children is not a "uniquely female quality", and women have no monopoly on child-rearing skills. Optimal breastfeeding for newborns is every 2.5-3 hours, with the intervals getting longer as the baby grows. As for the military, if men are so much more suited for combat, we could fill every safe, stateside billet with a woman, freeing countless men to go and fight. If we are not willing to sacrifice our women in a war, though, it is probably not something worth fighting for.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #197
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    Yeah, it's not everyone who's is capable of that... I was such a fool.
    To be fair, it would've turned a lot uglier if this was Tumblr or LiveJournal.

    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you've already noticed that I posted a couple of links a few pages back. But this is a derailing technique that I commonly see in situations like these (I was fortunately surprised here) so I felt the need to call it out.
    I guess part of the reason it's hard to convince people regarding these issues is that they're not always demonstrable. Sometimes, they're little things, subtle jabs, shared experiences. It's a collective anecdote, but still an anecdote, and people aren't always persuaded by them if there isn't something more concrete to back it up.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  8. #198
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    To be fair, it would've turned a lot uglier if this was Tumblr or LiveJournal.



    I guess part of the reason it's hard to convince people regarding these issues is that they're not always demonstrable. Sometimes, they're little things, subtle jabs, shared experiences. It's a collective anecdote, but still an anecdote, and people aren't always persuaded by them if there isn't something more concrete to back it up.
    Or reddit, that place is a cesspool.

    And that's probably true, which is unfortunate, since most of the time demanding more substantial proof than a person's testimony leads to a silenced minority.
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  9. #199
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So much ignorance. If staying home with a new baby is a mother's choice, it is not a real need of the baby (and it is not)...Optimal breastfeeding for newborns is every 2.5-3 hours, with the intervals getting longer as the baby grows.
    I can see how the tone of my post and the generalizations I made could have been construed as suggesting ignorance, but please do not assume I am. I probably have as much education on the subject as you do, and certainly more than someone who has not studied nutrition in a college course. I went 3/4 of the way through a nutrition minor. I have also read about what they call continuous breastfeeding, or feeding on demand, as well as attachment parenting. From a nutritional perspective breastfeeding is vitally important to health and well-being, and studies on tribal societies and some undeveloped countries where women practice this have observed babies feeding as often as every 10 minutes. This could vary from baby to baby if done on demand, since every baby is different. If women went as far as to raise their baby in a tribal fashion, it would be very different from what we are used to, and would require holding the baby in some way almost all the time. Of course not every women wants to go this far. I am simply saying, a woman should be free to raise her children how she chooses according to what she thinks her baby needs. I would like to say I know what everyone should do, but that would be arrogant, and saying every woman should stay home would be sexist, wouldn't it? The point about waiting to have children is that a lot of women don't know about these old parenting styles and think formula is just as healthy as breast milk (it is not), and I think it would be good to research these things and be prepared to sacrifice a career if necessary before you have children. My mother stayed home with me, breastfed me until I was 3, and spent years raising me and my sister as a single mother after she and my father divorced. Just fyi on my background. I'm glad she did it, and I wish it hadn't been so hard for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Caring for children is not a "uniquely female quality", and women have no monopoly on child-rearing skills.
    Sorry, I was referring to giving birth as a uniquely female quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As for the military, if men are so much more suited for combat, we could fill every safe, stateside billet with a woman, freeing countless men to go and fight. If we are not willing to sacrifice our women in a war, though, it is probably not something worth fighting for.
    Sure, putting women who are drafted in non-combat roles would be acceptable. And women who join voluntarily should be anywhere they want. Would you say sacrificing children is a necessary part of war? I think women are as valuable as children because they create life. So killing a woman is sacrilegious
    in my opinion. If you disagree that's your prerogative. I don't like killing anyone, but men do most of the killing, and so should comprise most of the people killed.

  10. #200
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    ...
    Okay, so you studied nutrition. I concede the fact that breastmilk is healthier for a child, but there are several cases where it isn't safe to breastfeed, such as
    the infant being diagnosed with galactosemia, a genetic metabolic disorder, or mothers who have HIV or active tuberculosis, or are taking prescribed cancer chemotherapy agents or undergoing radiation therapies. Not even to mention the fact that up to 15% of mothers can't even produce.
    Besides that, nutrition in most of the western world is vastly different than that in tribal societies, which I would be willing to say has an effect on both production of milk, and the need for more constant feedings due to a lack of nutrients in a standard feeding.

    Also, men can give birth, and have ovaries, and have XX chromosomes. Gender is a social construct, sex is biological, and they're different things. Most people tend to have their gender identity correlate with their biological sex, but that's no reason to normalize it (which only serves to dehumanize trans people).

    Men also help create life. Really, more succinct is the fact that men as well as women are already alive, which to me is more powerful and moving than just the ability to create life (but that's just my anti-war sentiment). Would you be okay with letting barren women be drafted into combat roles? How about women that just don't want children? The only reason that men do most of the killing is the same reason that men are mostly being killed: oppressive gender roles that force men into overly aggressive societal standards, and say that women should stay home and nurture.
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