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  1. #121
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I have never seen you actually explain your point of view/argue a single time in any conversation on this forum (I'll spare the examples, especially those dealing with other forum members). you simply dismiss the other person's argument as closed minded, immature or, in this case, "naive" and bring up irrelevant details about their personal lives (which are wrong in this instance. neither of my parents are professors lol). truth is, I think you are afraid to actually back up and explain your claims because they are values that you hold with little to no ability to explain them logically or hold your own in a debate (which is what I'm after here at the moment. debates are fun; silly attempts at character assassination are not) so instead you try to take some sort of moral/experiential high ground and paint project your own problems onto the other person. if you want men to be more informed about feminism, then stop complaining when one is trying to prompt you to explain (explain as in, have a conversation, bring up points and discuss disagreements. not explain as in talk and label people as disrespectful adjectives when they disagree about anything)
    i explain my points of view when i think it's appropriate, and when i think they'll be appreciated or at least understood by the other party. but i'm not a teacher, it's not my job to explain things to you that have been said by thousands of other people and are very available for you to read if you're truly interested. i did send you something to read about this, and i have sent you reading material in the past (and so have other people), and you ignore it because you don't feel like taking the time and effort to read a few pages on a subject. debating women's rights might be a fun little mental masturbation exercise for you, but for me it's a serious topic that deserves acknowledgement and respect and i don't want to engage with someone who i know isn't going to offer that.

    and i definitely recall you saying your parents worked in academia (maybe not professors), so i don't know if you were making it up then or lying about it now.

  2. #122
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm reading the article on patriarchy right now, and while, it makes some very good points, I would argue that men often suffer just as much from patriarchal structures as women do. the draft being a perfect example.

    PS: finally, we've arrived at a conversation
    YES, men absolutely suffer from patriarchal structures. Yes yes a thousand times yes, which is why I want to end them, for everyone. My feminism is about ending the kyriarchy and all forms of oppression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    You know what? I believe the whole system of conscription is troubling. But if we have it, women should also be conscripted. Women who want all of the privileges of equality with none of the negatives do a tremendous disservice to feminism.
    Agreed with this point. I'm not a fan of the military as an institution, but while there is one then it should target all individuals regardless of gender identity.
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  3. #123
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    I did, and I take issue with premise as expressed in the OP.

    Just to be clear, Elfa, I'm not saying this thread is useless. Hell, I'm even agreeing it's an area that yields interesting discussion.

    However, I think it's sad that this should even be an issue in the first place. And the fault for that isn't yours at all.
    I appreciate you clarified what you meant.

    I don't wanna argue about the profound thought base I had to make the OP, because there isn't one. I had a curiosity about a subject I don't know much about, wanted to ask people about it, and so I asked.

    Yeah, it is absurd that a subject like clothing provokes such a discussion (or marchs, or scandals, or university expelling, or tumults, as all of those happened) but this does provoke discussions.

    I'm glad you don't find it useless. I'm actually learning some new stuff here about feminism and about people in general.

    And I'm also very surprised about that proportions this thread is taking, including many personal comments between the people here. To me, it shows that this subject touches people intensely, and in many ways...

  4. #124
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i explain my points of view when i think it's appropriate, and when i think they'll be appreciated or at least understood by the other party. but i'm not a teacher, it's not my job to explain things to you that have been said by thousands of other people and are very available for you to read if you're truly interested. i did send you something to read about this, and i have sent you reading material in the past (and so have other people), and you ignore it because you don't feel like taking the time and effort to read a few pages on a subject. debating women's rights might be a fun little mental masturbation exercise for you, but for me it's a serious topic that deserves acknowledgement and respect and i don't want to engage with someone who i know isn't going to offer that.

    and i definitely recall you saying your parents worked in academia (maybe not professors), so i don't know if you were making it up then or lying about it now.
    - my parents are both scientists, not professors.
    - it absolutely is your job to explain yourself when you hurl disrespectful assumptions at people. if you aren't willing to explain when someone asks for one, the polite thing to do would be to say "I have no desire to explain this, here is a source if you're interested" as opposed to making baseless assumptions about the person. you did the former, but also the latter.
    - I'm currently looking at/debating this blog. I will look at your source if I have time
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  5. #125
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    I'm not even sure what this response is supposed to mean. If you are interested in further context for my comment, though, I edited my response.
    It was just a nonsense response to a comment I didn't like. But I replied your edited response later...

  6. #126
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    ;_; but what about the men?!

    To make it clear, I'm not really that interested in having women's issues mansplained to me; male input on feminism is something that should be limited to listening and learning.
    That's more or less like I approach it, although I think it's not my place to demand that of others (not to say it isn't yours, BTW).

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    ...I hope judging people for their race, age, gender and upbringing all in one comment is not something you make a habit of, especially if you continue to dismiss any attempts they have at hearing your point of view when they've expressed a willingness to listen. if you're not willing to listen to what the other party has to say, explain yourself or engage in an honest conversation, you should stop making snarky, disrespectful comments and judging people before you even give them a chance at communicating their point of view.
    I guess the qualm here is that there are some things that one experiences that are hard to translate to those who haven't experienced it. It'd be like someone telling you, "Why don't you 'come out of the closet'? I mean, this is the 21th Century, there's nothing to lose, right?"; that person has no malice, but is unaware of the issues that still plague minorities in society nowadays. Likewise, it can be difficult to see how women are constantly poked with the "know your place" stick. No offense intended here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    it's interesting you say this. I was watching a documentary awhile back about how oppression of women is the result of early civilization in which the roles of men were considered more valuable and organizational/military structures gave men more power. it also talked about how hunter gatherer societies as a whole are/have been much more egalitarian (both in terms of gender and in other areas) and how both masculine and feminine qualities were admired and appreciated (as opposed to modern society, in which both are shunned and the ideal is to suppress both sides of ones sexual energy)
    Yes, although you could argue that it stems from the "women = weak" thing...

    Raine's link is a good one.
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  7. #127
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I'm currently looking at/debating this blog. I will look at your source if I have time
    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress....r-womens-woes/
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  8. #128
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - my parents are both scientists, not professors.
    - it absolutely is your job to explain yourself when you hurl disrespectful assumptions at people. if you aren't willing to explain when someone asks for one, the polite thing to do would be to say "I have no desire to explain this, here is a source if you're interested" as opposed to making baseless assumptions about the person. you did the former, but also the latter.
    - I'm currently looking at/debating this blog. I will look at your source if I have time
    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress....r-womens-woes/
    -okay, so i was very close and the point i was trying to make by bringing up your upbringing still stands.
    -i did explain myself, and my reasons for making assumptions about you. however, it's not my responsibility to teach you a women's studies 101 class because you're too lazy to read an article on your own. and honestly, i don't care if i'm being polite or not. i'm sure a badass narcissist like yourself should be able to understand that.

  9. #129
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    YES, men absolutely suffer from patriarchal structures. Yes yes a thousand times yes, which is why I want to end them, for everyone. My feminism is about ending the kyriarchy and all forms of oppression.
    glad we agree
    I tend to agree with many of the more educated feminists I've talked to, but from others I've gotten better conversation from stereotypically fundamentalist Christians. I would argue that mal-practiced feminism is as much a contributor to kyriarchy as other forms of oppression (I've seen several of the latter category on this thread )

    I think the problem goes both ways though. for instance, I think that the social structure (not necessarily the legal system) of the United States is becoming increasingly matriarchal and that this is a problem as well (most school teachers are female, the number of children being raised by single mothers). matriarchal structures, in my opinion, tend to undermine traits like competition, ambition and high productivity, that are also necessary for a prosperous, free society. things tend to go to shit when there is an imbalance of influence of one gender over the other in any institution.
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  10. #130
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I tend to agree with many of the more educated feminists I've talked to,
    how do you tell if they're educated feminists or not?
    you said yourself you haven't even read a book or studied about feminism for more than 20 hours.
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