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  1. #101
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is easy to see that men who have the power are sexist, but it is very hard to see that women who are relatively powerless are also sexist.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yes. There is an understandable backlash against oppression in which the women see themselves as victims and equality unattainable, and so seek to control their "oppressors" as much as possible- and in so doing become oppressors themselves.
    Can I get an example of how women oppress men, please?
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  2. #102
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Can I get an example of how women oppress men, please?
    sure

    * 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

    *94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

    * Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

    * 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf
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  3. #103
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Rasofy, frankly, you have no clue what you're talking about. Your posts read like an unenlightened college age kid attempting - and failing - to impress people through convoluted language that ultimately lacks weight. And that's probably okay. If, however, you're over the age of majority, then I take it back; your position is narrow-minded and indefensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Yes. It worked so well that not only you women have the same rights men have, but we men still have to pay the bills.
    See, this here? This is ridiculous. To say, with no additional comment, that women have equal rights is ludicrous. Perhaps, unlike me, you haven't worked in a male-dominated profession. Perhaps, unlike me, you haven't seen promotions given because deals are hashed out on a golf course in a good-old-boy network that you cannot infiltrate, no matter what you do. Perhaps, Rasofy, you're simply too far removed to understand. And perhaps some day you'll get it.

    Don't get too excited by your pithy statement, though, Rasofy. This isn't the first time I've been subjected to the "woe is me" argument of the downtrodden man. Women are making tremendous strides in achieving equality, though we have a long, long way to go. And, like fia noted above, a significant number of men view this as threatening. No dominant class want to see its power erode.

    Maybe you're above all this, Rasofy. Maybe you're an enlightened, idealistic sort who believes men and women should be - and are? - equals. I don't know you. I haven't been around the forum in ages, so my exposure to you is limited. But maybe I can grok your opinion of women from the language in this thread. Or maybe the language will just give me a better impression of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    I generally avoid making points about gender equality/inequality, because the first reaction people have is ''omg dood that's prejudice yada yada'' and then they gang up to make the person look like a jerk.
    Anyways, I'll make my considerations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    That happens too. Problem is a lot of people are wired to see every unpopular idea as being misogynistic.


    Quite often.
    For the most part, my impression is that you make bold claims without support. If you really care about communicating with people, perhaps you want to work on backing your statements by proof. If people reject your arguments, despite proof, then you have latitude to take issue with their reactions. I concede, however, obtaining proof will be difficult given the hyperbolic nature of your assertions. And the fact that they're not grounded in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    I suspect that there's still a gap in the degree of specialization men and women have (which is starting to change) - and the statistics which you linked didn't cover that aspect at all. ''Equal work'' is a tricky concept. Do I have statistics to prove it? Nah, and I probably won't because this is the kind of data would be too inconvenient to be published.
    This is what I'm talking about. Conjecture. No support. Intellectually disingenuous. And ultimate blame laid at someone else's feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    I blame biology, but I won't be able to convince you.
    See this comment? You presume to know your opponent's position before you ever give her a chance. It implies that your opponent lacks the faculty to be swayed by argument. By throwing in the towel, you maintain the illusion of righteousness without doing legwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    - The bolded have their rights, and if they aren't receiving money, that's probably their fault.
    - There are also women who become millionaires when they have children with the right guy.


    I don't know how many of them are reporting those men to the authorities, much less the result of the delations, so I can't elaborate.
    These quotes relate to the issue of child support. And I maintain they're wholly irrelevant. You take issue with a subset of women who fail to assert their rights to child support. Disregarding the fact that this aside detracts from the larger, more pressing, issue of feminism, your argument has no foundation. Child support is not a woman's right. In fact, it has zero to do with women. Child support is the right of the child. Period. You can denounce these women for failing to assert their children's rights, and that's fine.

    This issue tangentially relates to the thread in that women who fail to assert their children's rights must draw from their own resources to support their children. This imbalance - the burden on women far outweighing the burden on the deadbeat dads - is an interesting topic of discussion regarding feminism. But having been through this issue as well, Rasofy, it's not as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. You have no idea how difficult it is for a headstrong, independent woman to assert her child's rights because it seems like a personal failure. There's a lot that you do not seem to comprehend here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    I think some people have the impression that employers out there select women and men for the same job and pay 755 dollars for the women and 1000 dollars for the men.
    I think a big reason why that income inequality happens is because women, on average, spend much more time raising kids and end up not having as much time to dedicate to their careers. But they usually have their husbands to back up them financially (which is reasonable and expected).
    You know, Rasofy, you hit on an important facet of inequality here. Women are expected to be the primary caregivers for their children. And, to survive, women must often work outside the home. I'd rather not get too much into the private details of my life, but I know what it's like to be the primary breadwinner and caretaker for my child. I've held both roles simultaneously, which led to a great deal of resentment on my part.

    And the truth is, Rasofy, that some employers low-ball women simply because they are women. They perceive women as less dependable, assuming that the women will need to take extra personal time to attend to family matters. I'm not even blaming men for this; women also perpetuate this stereotype. I've seen it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy
    Otoh, I'll concede that some people, especially elders, still don't think women are as capable as men for high positions. But that's changing quickly, I believe.
    Clearly you haven't lived in Texas.


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  4. #104
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @raine_lynn
    have been reading a little of that blog you linked me. so far my thoughts are
    - it made a good point about why feminism needs to be addressed separately from equality as a whole (especially in countries with more prevailing oppression of women)
    - it claims that feminism is not victim politics, but I largely disagree with this. ideally, it should not be, but in practice, it largely is, especially when used in context of discussing more and more trivial problems such as the OP
    - I disagree that their is no female privilege. I think that male and female privilege both exist to varying degrees in different parts of the world. for instance, women are rarely, if ever required to serve in the military. this is a blatant example of female privilege if you ask me
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  5. #105
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    And one more thing. That we're talking about sartorial choices as indicators of feminism is, in itself, troubling to me. It's baffling that we're immersed in a debate about whether wearing miniskirts or pants makes you more of a feminist. Jesus, who cares? Just put on some damned clothes (or don't) and go out and do good things.


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  6. #106
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I disagree that their is no female privilege. I think that male and female privilege both exist to varying degrees in different parts of the world. for instance, women are rarely, if ever required to serve in the military. this is a blatant example of female privilege if you ask me
    But this isn't female privilege, because there are no women in power making the decision to not require/allow women to serve in the military. The rationale for this comes from outdated gender roles and are based in a patriarchal society.
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  7. #107
    Señora Member Elfa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    And one more thing. That we're talking about sartorial choices as indicators of feminism is, in itself, troubling to me. It's baffling that we're immersed in a debate about whether wearing miniskirts or pants makes you more of a feminist. Jesus, who cares? Just put on some damned clothes (or don't) and go out and do good things.
    I suppose you didn't read the whole thread.

  8. #108
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    sure
    sure

    * 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

    *94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

    * Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

    * 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf
    I do not mean to dismiss these statistics by any means, because I am legitimately concerned about all victims; however, these do not apply since I'm asking about institutionalized oppression.
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  9. #109
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Can I get an example of how women oppress men, please?
    There are a lot of women who in their personal lives treat their men really badly. They insult and belittle them, insist on making all the decisions, act like they're idiots, and still expect them to pay for everything and buy them expensive things. Sometimes they are physically abusive. Abuse and domination is not a sex-specific thing, it is a human thing. It has simply been sanctioned by the power structure for a long time for men to behave this way toward women more often and in more institutionalized ways.

    Maybe "oppress" might not be the best word since we are talking about institutionalized problems and this backlash occurs on a smaller more personal level, but oppression can be appropriate if we are just talking about an imbalance of power and suppression of freedom.

  10. #110
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfa View Post
    I suppose you didn't read the whole thread.
    I did, and I take issue with premise as expressed in the OP.

    Just to be clear, Elfa, I'm not saying this thread is useless. Hell, I'm even agreeing it's an area that yields interesting discussion.

    However, I think it's sad that this should even be an issue in the first place. And the fault for that isn't yours at all.


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