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  1. #91
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    was there a point to the first part of your comment?
    I would rather have a good conversation and have someone explain themselves when they make disrespectful, dismissive comments. I am an Ne dom, I would rather have a conversation than read something in a book. you cannot communicate and exchange differing points of view with a book (and I'm a slow reader. feminism has yet to prove worth 20+ hours of reading time)
    PS: this thread is a wonderful source of data for how people react to touchy subjects.
    No, it's good data for how people react to the willfully ignorant who have the gall to demand explanations and argument that will no doubt be lost on them because they are uninformed by choice.
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  2. #92
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    No, it's good data for how people react to the willfully ignorant who have the gall to demand explanations and argument that will no doubt be lost on them because they are uninformed by choice.
    notice the contradiction between the bold points? willfully ignorant people do the opposite of this. they don't go directly to the mouth of their opposition and demand honest discussion (many of the points of which I would probably agree with, I might even learn a thing or two, that's the intention at least). that is like me going to a college professor during office hours and asking him to explain something and him saying I'm "willfully ignorant" because I couldn't possibly understand if he did explain it.
    -sigh- this thread is going to keep me entertained for hours
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  3. #93
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    actually, yes it is. how is the privileged group supposed to understand the "marginalized" group (victim complex much?) if a member of the marginalized group doesn't make any attempt to explain clearly what their problems are in a rational discussion?
    Read the link, please.

    Thousands of people have already discussed this and there are a million different places where you can learn about feminism. In fact, here's another link for you to ignore!
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  4. #94
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    What's feminist is wearing what you want. And being as sexy or as unclothed as you want. It is owning yourself and controlling your own life, while being responsible for the consequences of your actions.

    There are obviously some situations in which you wouldn't want to be nude, like your best friend's wedding- but ideally a feminist culture doesn't automatically sexualize women's bodies so much that nudity is considered an invitation for sex. We don't live in such an ideal society (like some native tribal cultures), but it is always good to keep ideals in mind and make small steps to get there. I model nude for artists, and it has been incredibly liberating.
    it's interesting you say this. I was watching a documentary awhile back about how oppression of women is the result of early civilization in which the roles of men were considered more valuable and organizational/military structures gave men more power. it also talked about how hunter gatherer societies as a whole are/have been much more egalitarian (both in terms of gender and in other areas) and how both masculine and feminine qualities were admired and appreciated (as opposed to modern society, in which both are shunned and the ideal is to suppress both sides of ones sexual energy)
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  5. #95
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Read the link, please.

    Thousands of people have already discussed this and there are a million different places where you can learn about feminism. In fact, here's another link for you to ignore!
    okay, now we're getting somewhere. thank you for actually providing information. I will take a look, but know that I am also looking to have a conversation and not just read about one (I have a short attention span for reading, I'm a much more conversational/auditory learner)
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  6. #96
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    notice the contradiction between the bold points? willfully ignorant people do the opposite of this. they don't go directly to the mouth of their opposition and demand honest discussion (many of the points of which I would probably agree with, I might even learn a thing or two, that's the intention at least). that is like me going to a college professor during office hours and asking him to explain something and him saying I'm "willfully ignorant" because I couldn't possibly understand if he did explain it.
    -sigh- this thread is going to keep me entertained for hours
    It's not a contradiction if the motivation behind the demands for arguments/explanations is so that the willfully ignorant person can (1) rationalize around them in order to defend their original ignorant views and (2) push off responsibility for their ignorance onto their interlocutors.

    Your bad faith is apparent.
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  7. #97
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    An interesting problem for feminism is that the power relation between women and men has two sides - and both sides are sexist.

    It is easy to see that men who have the power are sexist, but it is very hard to see that women who are relatively powerless are also sexist.

    Just as slaves develop a slave morality, so women develop the morality of the powerless.

    And just as the slave owner and the slave are immoral, so women and men are also immoral and sexist.
    Yes. There is an understandable backlash against oppression in which the women see themselves as victims and equality unattainable, and so seek to control their "oppressors" as much as possible- and in so doing become oppressors themselves. But look at the big picture. This is a step toward balance of power, and we are not there yet. As long as people are fighting, as long as we are unequal in all the hidden aspects of life rather than just the obvious ones, we are not there yet. But we continue to make small steps in a million different areas because more women are getting involved, seeing new perspectives in which to apply feminism, and creating harmony in diverse ways. Let's focus on freedom and empowerment for both genders, and harmony and love between the sexes.

  8. #98
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    Well, I don't really think you're gunna catch me in a short skirt, so I'm gunna go with pants.

    I haven't really read this thread, but I have a question: ladies, am I a feminist?

    Tbch, I have a slight disdain for most of the kids in the women's studies department.

    But few things make me angrier than women's rights potentially being rolled back in places like Tunisia.

    I think you've seen enough of my views on various matters to make this determination -- can I be one of you?

    (note: my views may very well differ from yours on some issues, but that seems to be the case with modern-day feminism)

  9. #99
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    it's interesting you say this. I was watching a documentary awhile back about how oppression of women is the result of early civilization in which the roles of men were considered more valuable and organizational/military structures gave men more power. it also talked about how hunter gatherer societies as a whole are/have been much more egalitarian (both in terms of gender and in other areas) and how both masculine and feminine qualities were admired and appreciated (as opposed to modern society, in which both are shunned and the ideal is to suppress both sides of ones sexual energy)
    I agree.

  10. #100
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    It's not a contradiction if the motivation behind the demands for arguments/explanations is so that the willfully ignorant person can (1) rationalize around them in order to defend their original ignorant views and (2) push off responsibility for their ignorance onto their interlocutors.
    Your bad faith is apparent.
    this is a completely baseless and judgmental assumption. I don't have particularly strong views on feminism to begin with, so why would I feel the need to rationalize them? especially when few people seem to be willing to provide me any real information on the topic.

    I'm taking a look at this blog though, and it's somewhat interesting so far
    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress....ale-privilege/
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