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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Plight of the "hasbians"

    Interesting article here about individuals living homosexual lives coming to heterosexual marriages and raising families.

    I think it raises a lot of questions about homosexual orientations, some of those speaking really do appear to be consciously electing a sexual orientation, or rather conscioulsy rejecting a sexual orientation, ie heterosexuality, and winding up confused as a consequence when heterosexual attraction actually intrudes on them.

    The reactions of members of the homosexual community to the choices of individuals developing heterosexuality would appear to be less than accepting or approving or validating. Which would really appear to be at odds with the usual liberal spin with respect to support/approval/validation for homosexuality being synomynous with support/approval/validation of diversity and autonomy.

    It also would appear that cultural pressures and persuasion DO play an important role for many of the choices made by these individuals and the community, defined by sexual orientation, which they choose to identify with or are alienated by and reject.

    It is important to state that this is not in any way a clever ploy by evangelical or religious objectors to homosexuality, it is not even a piece which would be particularly congruent with anyone who has a straight forward conscientous objection to homosexuality as it exists or is profiled presently. I would hope that anyone interested in the topic of how sexual orientation and identity impact upon peoples lives, even before they feature, I would suggest disproportionately, as political or policy issues, could listen to this with an open mind.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01jhdgl

    Personally, I dont buy the various ideas about "fluid", "liquid" or changeable sexual orientation which does feature in this piece and is spoken about by some of the commentators themselves. There is a lot in this piece which would be congruent with some of the Jungian developmental perspectives of sexual orientation and how it is influenced by projection/integration of the anima and animus in self and other.

    Although those theories have been skipped over wholesale for a long time and rejected as, at the worst, bigotted or a by product of homophobia or closeted homosexuality, the usual slurs, and, at the best, as heterosexist.

    While I am sure the rejection was, for some at least, a matter of operating in good faith and believing it served equality as abstractly understood it really would appear to be at odds with what is in evidence from peoples own self-reportage. Which in turn makes maintaining that rejection or dumping of those ideas appear a little Orwellian or politically motivated.

  2. #2
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    HASBIAN?

    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Just because you marry someone of the opposite sex and even raise children together doesn't change your core sexual orientation or gender identity. That guy who did that study (yeah that guy) about "reforming gays" came out and apologized and said he was all wrong.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  3. #3
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    There really are some people who can be attracted to members of either sex. Perhaps this is the ultimate in opem-mindedness in relationships - they will place no limits on what category of person they will love.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There really are some people who can be attracted to members of either sex. Perhaps this is the ultimate in opem-mindedness in relationships - they will place no limits on what category of person they will love.
    Yeah but the whole of this article and all the interviews seem to suggest to me that no matter how much these individuals wished to or conditioned themselves to be attracted to the same sex that a natural inclination to the opposite sex DID assert itself at least once in their lives, now they were so conflicted about this that they elected to identify as homosexuals who just happen to be romantically involved or married to members of the opposite sex with children says something about how alienated from heterosexuality they are and I would question why that is.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    HASBIAN?

    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    Just because you marry someone of the opposite sex and even raise children together doesn't change your core sexual orientation or gender identity. That guy who did that study (yeah that guy) about "reforming gays" came out and apologized and said he was all wrong.
    I'm not really sure what gender identity has to do with sexual orientation, anyway, I dont know who "that guy" is and what "reforming gays" is either, in this piece there is mention of evangelists and I think something which I've heard refered to elsewhere as "reparative therapy" and this is not it.

    I've read interesting things written by Eric Berne, Anthony Storr, other therapists, analysts and thinkers which would challenge the present homosexual/bisexual ascendency in society's norms, its not well known because its all disappeared down the "memory hole" Orwellian fashion, but I dont really hold my views because of material like that.

    My views are a product of my experience growing up as a heterosexual and paying attention to what is trending, the fact that there's testamonies, confused and all as they are, from actual "former" lesbians and homosexuals which would appear to challenge a lot of trends I'm concerned about too doesnt surprise me or their dismissal either for that matter. I'm hoping in time that a more balanced or mature or even objective mindset is going to prevail.

  6. #6
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah but the whole of this article and all the interviews seem to suggest to me that no matter how much these individuals wished to or conditioned themselves to be attracted to the same sex that a natural inclination to the opposite sex DID assert itself at least once in their lives, now they were so conflicted about this that they elected to identify as homosexuals who just happen to be romantically involved or married to members of the opposite sex with children says something about how alienated from heterosexuality they are and I would question why that is.
    I would suspect that these people had some early attraction to members of the same sex, leading them to think they were gay. Their subsequent attraction to someone of the opposite sex causes them to question that. Yet another example of people feeling they have to pigeonhole themselves into one box or another, here: gay or straight. Gays, and before them blacks, have shown us the downside of placing artificial limits on whom we should love. If we acknowledge our feelings and are honest about them with the object of our affections, the rest can take care of itself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #7
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GVUyG04eEU"]It's not that 10% of thee came out defective...[/YOUTUBE]
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would suspect that these people had some early attraction to members of the same sex, leading them to think they were gay. Their subsequent attraction to someone of the opposite sex causes them to question that. Yet another example of people feeling they have to pigeonhole themselves into one box or another, here: gay or straight. Gays, and before them blacks, have shown us the downside of placing artificial limits on whom we should love. If we acknowledge our feelings and are honest about them with the object of our affections, the rest can take care of itself.
    The whole article is about how they did discover attraction to the opposite sex but wanted to remain identified as gay, there's at least two of the interviewees who speak that way and cant really explain or choose not to explain their alienation from heterosexuality, one of them just speaks as if it is a given, then while objectively being heterosexual but identifying as homosexual they are rejected by homosexuals, labelled "hasbians" and "yestergays", this is something which they find difficult and are reporting as such.

    The woman who composed the article and did the interviews, who also was/is a stage comedian at fringe events and has written for liberal broadsheet news papers, I think has been brave to highlight this and did describe having to "come out" twice and deal with alienation and rejection twice from two seperate communities.

    I dont believe that her message is about embracing bisexuality as a norm in the face of two-fold rejection either, I know that lots of people would like to transcend the dichotomy of homosexual-heterosexual by simply doing so and enlist theories about choice, variety, diversity and potential into that but I disagree with that. A lot of the time I just see that as a reflection of consumerism within a different psycho-sexual or psycho-social sphere, other times it really strikes me that people do not wish to make choices or form judgements for fear of giving offense, sometimes to people who they are close personal friends or acquaintences of.

    The reality is that homosexuals are a minority's minority and they take up a lot time and space in public discourse, its surprising that they dont feel this unwelcome but then again I do think this is a reflection of a lot of people who choose to embrace the label and identity at the moment, this would seem to suggest that this phenomenon does have an impact upon heterosexuals which creates as much confusion and adversity was being a minority does for homosexuals. This is all something to be thinking about when considering all the normative struggles which are going on, its not a simple matter of goodies and baddies, old and new etc. as it often is portrayed in some pretty immature politicalised circles.

  9. #9
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The woman who composed the article and did the interviews, who also was/is a stage comedian at fringe events and has written for liberal broadsheet news papers, I think has been brave to highlight this and did describe having to "come out" twice and deal with alienation and rejection twice from two seperate communities.

    I dont believe that her message is about embracing bisexuality as a norm in the face of two-fold rejection either, I know that lots of people would like to transcend the dichotomy of homosexual-heterosexual by simply doing so and enlist theories about choice, variety, diversity and potential into that but I disagree with that.
    A lot of the time I just see that as a reflection of consumerism within a different psycho-sexual or psycho-social sphere, other times it really strikes me that people do not wish to make choices or form judgements for fear of giving offense, sometimes to people who they are close personal friends or acquaintences of.

    The reality is that homosexuals are a minority's minority and they take up a lot time and space in public discourse, its surprising that they dont feel this unwelcome but then again I do think this is a reflection of a lot of people who choose to embrace the label and identity at the moment, this would seem to suggest that this phenomenon does have an impact upon heterosexuals which creates as much confusion and adversity was being a minority does for homosexuals. This is all something to be thinking about when considering all the normative struggles which are going on, its not a simple matter of goodies and baddies, old and new etc. as it often is portrayed in some pretty immature politicalised circles.
    As you point out, the alienation and rejection come from the perceived need to "come out", to apply a label to oneself. The more we can get away from this labelling, the less alienation there will be. People will still disagree and not everyone will get along because people are different, but it seems healthier if disagreements are at least between individuals rather than groups; in other words, me vs. you rather than us vs. them.

    We don't need to embrace bisexuality (or homosexuality) as a norm any more than we must embrace left-handedness as a norm. Both populations are minorities, and probably always will be. That is not an excuse to vilify them, though, or to attempt to "correct" them. No one should feel driven to embrace a high-profile label just to gain a sense of legitimacy of who they are. The public attention given to homosexuality has come largely because people who are not gay have historically made it difficult for people who are gay just to be themselves. Gay people, like other groups "outside the norm" have had to assert themselves and band together out of self-preservation, and occasionally have gone overboard. If we can start seeing and accepting people for who they really are, perhaps people will feel less need to hide behind labels, or use labels to attack people different from them.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #10
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As you point out, the alienation and rejection come from the perceived need to "come out", to apply a label to oneself. The more we can get away from this labelling, the less alienation there will be. People will still disagree and not everyone will get along because people are different, but it seems healthier if disagreements are at least between individuals rather than groups; in other words, me vs. you rather than us vs. them.

    We don't need to embrace bisexuality (or homosexuality) as a norm any more than we must embrace left-handedness as a norm. Both populations are minorities, and probably always will be. That is not an excuse to vilify them, though, or to attempt to "correct" them. No one should feel driven to embrace a high-profile label just to gain a sense of legitimacy of who they are. The public attention given to homosexuality has come largely because people who are not gay have historically made it difficult for people who are gay just to be themselves. Gay people, like other groups "outside the norm" have had to assert themselves and band together out of self-preservation, and occasionally have gone overboard. If we can start seeing and accepting people for who they really are, perhaps people will feel less need to hide behind labels, or use labels to attack people different from them.
    I agree with what I highlighted in your post, not really the rest of it because I dont really accept it for fact, I also think its strange that your post in response to material which highlights the exclusivity and rejection corresponding to the gay identity by those who once belonged to it and then found out they didnt is all about validating the homosexual identity.

    I'm all for the time when people are defined as people and not their sexual orientation, I dont see the many gay identity or welfare groups are contributing to the time when that'll be the case.

    I dont see the fact that heterosexuality is normative as injurious to the homosexual minority, its not a deliberate effort at social engineering, just a reflection of how most people are and experience life, I'm unconvinced that messing with that will benefit homosexuals but this newspiece would suggest that it does have consequences which are not beneficial for heterosexuals.

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