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  1. #51
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Power is situational because context is always relevant. Just because it's less common doesn't mean it doesn't apply. You can always revise your own definitions, just not everyone else's.
    Institutionalized power. Sociological definition.
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  2. #52
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    That does not assume that. It reinforces rather than dissipates preexisting divides. In this context, why deliberately encourage them?
    Mmm, that would be true if both groups held essentially the same position in society and had the same relationship to the word. Then it characterizes that "fight over the word" like an evenly matched football game where two equals are vying for control of the ball in a healthy game of sportsmanship. Crudely, "if you do it, it's the same as me doing it, so if I can't do it, you can't do it!!". But, it's not.

    If that ^^ were the case, that word (whether it's the n word, 'dyke', etc.) would not exist in the first place and they would not be nearly as significant and cause such a gut check in people upon hearing them.

    Politely ignoring certain things or disavowing something for the comfort of the dominant group at best continues to perpetrate unresolved tensions. Calling attention to something is not necessarily emphasizing its truth. When people reclaim a word, they challenge the truth of it, so yes, I think it does pave the way to dissipating the power of hate speech and the systems in place that perpetuate oppression.

    And at the end of the day, I think this is all one long process. You reclaim a word, there's controversy, and then you get to a day where it barely means anything anymore. Or you get to the point people don't have to visibly assert their rights on principle or reclaim a word because they have real equality and power in society. The greater the oppression the greater the response. That's why growing natural hair out and showing off giant afros (BLACKNESS) were popular in the 70s and women public burned bras (WOMENS SEXUALITY) around that time as well. Now women can go braless and it doesn't really raise an eyebrow. Those were more blatantly oppressive times so people responded with more blatant displays of rebellion.

    So, I hope that was all on-topic. :P
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  3. #53
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Oooh, what a big juicy discussion. :rubs hands together eagerly:

    I actually started writing this big response when I saw Iwakar's OP but I think my Ipad erased it. I am shocked, freaking SHOCKED, that @MacGuffin said some stuff I agree with. OMG. The world is ending. But, back to the topic.



    Even if you are 'in-group' and belong to the umbrella GLBTQQA (go acronyms! ) group how you feel about terms and what you want to claim for yourself and either others "in your group" depends mostly on politics and generation - since different words will resonate with a different personal significance for you. Generally older biowomen prefer to terms 'gay and lesbian' and it's a younger and more politcally radically group of female born women who prefer terms like queer or more colorfully 'genderfuck' to describe where they're at on the gender and sexuality spectrum. Generally older women still remember how derogatory 'queer' was but I think if you're in at the tail end of Gen X and definitely Gen Y the word is was leeched of most of the hurtful aura by the time you heard it.

    There is A LOT that goes into a word, particularly the ones you choose. Queer is probably the most successfully 'reclaimed' word in America. Then again, most homophobes still prefer "fag" and "dyke bitch" to queer when they spew hate. That probably helps. For a younger generation, queer isn't even an insult and no one even uses it really to say "that's strange".





    That assumes there is no "us-versus-them mentality" already in place and that people are not already separated. Basically that no racism exists. If there were no racism and no racist history, there would be no such words for us to be debating about to being with.



    Time for an affirmative action thread!!

    Kidding. As for your definition of discrimination, I think what's more salient is the concept of oppression and specifically the institutionalized kind. If all of a sudden you decide you hate people where blue shirts and aren't going to serve them at your store, that's discrimination. But socially is this significant? But, if you a target a historically marginalized group you're just perpetuating that BS and it will be just 1 instance of many throughout their lifetime.



    'Kay, end sum, it doesn't matter if you think that. What matters is what the person on the receiving end of the word thinks. Especially if you personally have a totally different relationship to the word and no personal conception of the impact that word can have.



    I think Jennifer and Randomnity and the Rain Lynne touched on that but I also answered that above.



    I highly doubt this.

    But on the larger level there is distinct difference between "being okay" in a private conversation and when something is offensive or racist period. If we're just talking about "how to say offensive things without offending people" it's a no brainer, it's literally as simple as MacGuffin said (<--gawd, I can't believe I'm saying that!!!) then "it depends on your audience".

    From a social boundaries and legal perspective you can be as disgusting, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, etc. in the privacy of your home or with your Klansmen meet-up. However, you can't do this at work and even if you are a homophobic SOB you can't OPENLY fire or refuse to serve someone for being gay. You have to get clever with it.

    In certain company where everyone says "I'm okay with this" you can say whatever you want.

    At the end of the day, even if those individuals say it's ok does than mean the words you use lose any of the hateful historical significance or are not problematic? I think that was the bigger question @iwakar was asking.



    OMG, thank you so much for saying all that.
    You can get sad, you can get mad, or you can get funny. Life is too short to hold all that anger and resentment in your heart, so I choose the latter. So shoot me
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  4. #54
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    I saw that, but I don't know whether I believe it or not. For argument's sake I assume she did.
    Well, that's a sucky thing to do as a lawyer.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  5. #55
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I was pointing out that sentiment "nothing should be offensive/everyone should say what they want" etc. does not change the actual historical significance or gut impact of the words. And as long as there are "large numbers" of people from certain groups (for people who like to use facts and figures to bolster their arguments ) who will still find certain words offensive, that word is offensive. Period.
    All I wrote was that it is a "waste".



    Nigger=/=nigga. "Large numbers" may be offended by 'nigga', but a large number are not and even the ones who are offended are most often offended due to context and not necessarily the word itself.


    And why would you be offended for someone who is not offended themselves (if you were referring to yourself that is) ??
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  6. #56
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Nigger=/=nigga. "Large numbers" may be offended by 'nigga', but a large number are not and even the ones who are offended are most often offended due to context and not necessarily the word itself.
    Whether or not a word is offensive doesn't come down to a numbers game, though.
    4w5-1w2-5w4 -- RLUAI -- Chaotic Good/Neutral

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  7. #57
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Whether or not a word is offensive doesn't come down to a numbers game, though.
    Funny I didn't see you gearing this toward the person I quoted.




    Niggas ITT got a case of selective reading.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Institutionalized power. Sociological definition.
    Growing up I did not understand this.

    I thought anyone could be "racist", as in anyone could be prejudiced by race. Which is true, but is usually not the definition used regarding racial matters in the United States. Now I realize the other definition of racism, where you have prejudice by race, coupled with institutional and social power to enforce that prejudice.

    I really wish this were explained more often. There are a ton of confused white kids out there that don't realize there are two definitions.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajah View Post
    Well, that's a sucky thing to do as a lawyer.
    I backed it up with logic a few posts later!

  10. #60
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Funny I didn't see you gearing this toward the person I quoted.
    Sorry, I didn't read the context. My point remains, though. But then again I'm a negative utilitarian. Is it really detrimental to someone to avoid using slurs? The kind of person who can't communicate without resorting to offensive language isn't really the kind of person that I'd find good company anyway, but for most people they lose nothing by not saying a slur. However, people of marginalized groups which are subjected to slurs can be oppressed, which is quite a negative experience.
    4w5-1w2-5w4 -- RLUAI -- Chaotic Good/Neutral

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