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  1. #71
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I don't really see what "he had a wife and kids!!!! OMGZ0RZ!" has to do with anything. You don't think gay people marry members of the opposite sex and start families with them sometimes? If that never happened, I wouldn't be a part of my own current nuclear family.

  2. #72
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    Batwoman came out as a lesbian character way back in 2006, and all of no one cared.


    What??



    Wait, why does she have such tension with Bat Man then?

    As for continuity: DC just launched what it called "the New 52," which specially changed a ton of continuity stuff and even outright reset a lot of things to attract new fans via a simpler backstory. This change isn't any bigger than the others they've made.
    U saw that.

    Yeah, comics are WAY confusing. You literally need an atlas to understand what's going onl. It's even more confusing because a lot of competing story lines exist or are considered "non canonical" so it's like in one comic so and so is a doctor from Albuerqueque and then in another he's a masseuse from NYC and yre like "what's going on??"

    It seems comics are meant more for the spirit of the character and petty things like birth, deaths, family, relationships, jobs, etc. are free to change and be erased at any time. It seems like comic publishers spam readers with as many stories as possible at once instead of thinking of one cohesive meta narrative.

    This seems totally pulp fiction b-rated to me which is why other than movies I avoid big name comics like the plague. I do enjoy indie comics though as they respect the narrative and can keep their stories straight.

    The Green alanterns is an obvious choice to make gay, a female, a minority, etc since it's basically an international army of people and there have been several different Earthling characters to fill that's role, including someone's daughter, right? the Green Lantern was meant to Constwntly introduce new characters so it's not a fixed nrrwtive and was never meant to be.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    So, "neutral" or "impartial" social engineering is that which is hetero normative? You see hetero normative as being a completely unbiased position?
    I think what you're labelling heteronormative is just an accurate reflection or representation of society at large.

    The reality is that there has always been and always will be gay media and gay comics, this move IS social engineering because it is substituting something planned with a specific aim for the organic pattern which existed previously.

    What is wrong with heteronormativity? Its what has worked for humanity until now, worked very well, why should what has worked for everyone other than homosexuals be forfeit? Its not demonstrably benefiting homosexuals but it is alienating and politicising a lot of people, dividing a lot of friends, families and neighbours.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't really see what "he had a wife and kids!!!! OMGZ0RZ!" has to do with anything. You don't think gay people marry members of the opposite sex and start families with them sometimes? If that never happened, I wouldn't be a part of my own current nuclear family.
    Well, I know that if I lived in an exclusively homosexual environment I would not be able to conscent to a homosexual relationship so it seems odd to me that I hear things like this reported to be honest, I hesitate to mention this because from what you've posted here its bound to be pretty personal to you but all the same.

    It is one of the things which makes me wonder if homosexuality can be as defined and determined as many of the well meaning and supportive defenders of homosexuality suggest, in some ways I dont think that's an important question, ie whether its fashion/culture/whimsy or genetics which leads to specific sexual choices, but if they are wrong about that then what else might they be wrong about too?

  5. #75
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think what you're labelling heteronormative is just an accurate reflection or representation of society at large.

    What is wrong with heteronormativity? Its what has worked for humanity until now, worked very well, why should what has worked for everyone other than homosexuals be forfeit? Its not demonstrably benefiting homosexuals but it is alienating and politicising a lot of people, dividing a lot of friends, families and neighbours.
    Just FYI "heteronormative" means a lot more than just "heterosexuals are considered normal" I'd get into it but it's late, even for me...:P

    Anyone else want to give it a go?
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  6. #76
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think what you're labelling heteronormative is just an accurate reflection or representation of society at large.

    What is wrong with heteronormativity? Its what has worked for humanity until now, worked very well, why should what has worked for everyone other than homosexuals be forfeit? Its not demonstrably benefiting homosexuals but it is alienating and politicising a lot of people, dividing a lot of friends, families and neighbours.
    Just FYI "heteronormative" means a lot more than just "heterosexuals are considered normal" I'd get into it but it's late, even for me...:P

    Anyone else want to give it a go?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  7. #77
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post


    What??



    Wait, why does she have such tension with Bat Man then?
    Well, I think that's a good point, the final line and what incarnation of Bat Woman is this? I know that original Batwoman, Barbara Gordon, was confined to a wheelchair after being shot in the spine and became a hacker, Oracle, if I'm not wrong, I read some copies of No Mans Land that certainly was the case then.

    What I'm interested in is why this "yes" reaction? I mean perhaps you're having a laugh, in which case its a moot point, although in that case why would it be humorous? I wonder about this whole "win/lose" of identity politics, particularly as it pertains to bigger social norm shifts or attempts at the same.

    Now and again I'll meet people who reckon their views are the same as mine on topics, not necessarily the whole heteronormative/homosexuality identified thing, and they're strange people, spend a lot more time than me thinking about people or ideologies they dont like to the point were it seems like without the same people or ideology which they were hostile towards they'd have something missing from their lives. In the UK there was some great thinking on this kind of thing done by a lot of the leftwing margins in relation to the whole fascism/anti-fascism politics which were around at the time with a rash of racist crimes being reported by the press and emergence of the anti-nazi league.

    Might seem like a bit of an off topic tangent, I just found that interesting, if it is off topic we can drop it.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Just FYI "heteronormative" means a lot more than just "heterosexuals are considered normal" I'd get into it but it's late, even for me...:P

    Anyone else want to give it a go?
    Its early for me, I wont expect a reply if its late with you but I'll read when you choose to post next if you like.

    I know it means a lot more than that, generally I think in terms of deeper trends and sociology when I hear the word "normative", in relation to anything not just sexual orientation, and what allows a family, neighbourhood, community or society to reproduce itself one generation after another, although the same applies, in a sort of reciprocal way to individuals and intermediate groups. Does that sound like what your understanding of the term is?

    I dont tend towards "natural fallacy" when discussing this topic anyway because its a bit of a red herring or blind alley discussion wise, or so I think anyway.

  9. #79
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    for someone that is so homophobic, lark you definitely seem very interested in alternative sexualities. are you sure you're 100% heterosexual yourself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its early for me, I wont expect a reply if its late with you but I'll read when you choose to post next if you like.

    I know it means a lot more than that, generally I think in terms of deeper trends and sociology when I hear the word "normative", in relation to anything not just sexual orientation, and what allows a family, neighbourhood, community or society to reproduce itself one generation after another, although the same applies, in a sort of reciprocal way to individuals and intermediate groups. Does that sound like what your understanding of the term is?

    I dont tend towards "natural fallacy" when discussing this topic anyway because its a bit of a red herring or blind alley discussion wise, or so I think anyway.

  10. #80
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Just FYI "heteronormative" means a lot more than just "heterosexuals are considered normal" I'd get into it but it's late, even for me...:P

    Anyone else want to give it a go?
    Please do, because it seems my understanding of the term is incorrect....though it would seem that most people who routinely use the term are incorrect, as well. I consider the rejection of my understanding of hetero-normativity to lead to idiocy like this: http://nationaljournal.com/thenextam..._search&page=1

    As for Swordpath and his motivations, its perfectly reasonable to be annoyed at the anvilicious* nature of this change.

    * http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Anvilicious

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