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  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Default CO2 and Population Statistics

    In order to determine which of the top ten polluting countries is the biggest polluter by population, I've crunched some numbers based on respective CO2 emissions.

    1. China, at only 9,090 lbs per capita, is yet the world's biggest polluter. Does this tell us something about the living conditions in China? Energy is being produced and consumed at enormous levels, but little of it is going to its own citizens. It is, in fact, going towards manufacturing cheap items to sell to the rest of the world using labor that is practically slave labor in subsistence living conditions. Worse yet is the pollution the Chinese people are forced to eat and breathe. Cancer is now the leading cause of death in China.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...rial-pollution

    2. The US is the second largest CO2 producer, but also the consumer of its own products, leading to a per capita amount of 37,600 lbs of CO2 by my figures. The standard of living is higher than most of the world. Nobody is forced to work themselves into the grave, and the cancer death rate is lower than China's.

    3. Russia, with the Chernobyl area as one of the biggest CO2 producers in the world, emits 24,000 lbs of CO2 per capita.

    4. India is a wannabe China in the pollution realm, and for similar reasons. With a population of over 1 billion, its per capita carbon emission is at a mere 2,270 lbs. India stinks, but at least you won't be enslaved there, although some of its cancer rates are among the highest in the world.

    5. Japan has a highly urbanized population which contributes 19,500 lbs of CO2 per capita per year.

    6. Germany has been making great strides to raise its standards on CO2 emissions, but it still manages to produce 21,000 lbs per capita per year.

    7. Canada has nothing to brag about. Pretty postcards depicting wide expanses of forest areas and golden fields of grain do nothing to alleviate the fact that Canada, although the 7th largest producer of CO2 in the world, has a per capita CO2 rate almost as high as the US: 36,000 lbs. At least they don't blame their neighbor to the south, but certain manufacturing processes in their own country.

    8. The UK produces 19,500 lbs of CO2 per capita per year. This probably has to do with less industrialization, and perhaps a push toward going green.

    9. South Korea ties with Germany at 21,000 lbs per capita. Yet Germany has almost twice the population of South Korea. Perhaps there is less industrialization in South Korea, but fewer measures to control its emissions compared to Germany.

    10. Iran, at 12,700 lbs per capita per year, is developing its nuclear power technology in order to become a proud world leader in reducing its carbon emissions.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #2
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Chernobyl is in the Ukraine, not Russia.

    The issue is not pollution per person, its pollution per unit of production-which is why attempting to limit greenhouse gasses through costly regulations in developed countries is futile at best, and counter-productive at worst, as developing nations (where lost production moves to when higher costs in developed countries cancel out the advantages of higher productivity) tend to have far higher ratios.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Chernobyl is in the Ukraine, not Russia.
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The issue is not pollution per person, its pollution per unit of production-which is why attempting to limit greenhouse gasses through costly regulations in developed countries is futile at best, and counter-productive at worst, as developing nations (where lost production moves to when higher costs in developed countries cancel out the advantages of higher productivity) tend to have far higher ratios.
    I'm not saying that co2 per capita is an issue per se. But it has its revealing points.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #4
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm not saying that co2 per capita is an issue per se. But it has its revealing points.
    A few thoughts about 1, 2 and 4:

    Since we are talking about per capita, the shear size of China and India in comparison to the U.S

    The amount of jobs that are in China because the regulation laws aren't as strict. For example, Hong Kong is one of the biggest markets in Asia because the regulation there is the most lax or one of the most lax in the world. Yet, because of this, there are also thousands of people living in stark conditions with an overly gross pollution (even though there are millionaires there.) If we were to make an example with New York, you'd be seeing the ghettos that were there during the world migrations to the U.S. (the potato famine and the huge migration the Ellis Island and the look for better conditions towards Angel Island in the west) with the standards that are in place in Hong Kong

    The type of jobs that are in India, quite a lot of jobs in India deals with IT or medical records because it is cheaper to keep it there than keeping it in America (chances are, most of us have some type of medical record in India,) there is less of a need for CO2 (at least since China is more about manufacturing compared to India.)

    Regulation/deregulation and markets and standard of living.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    A few thoughts about 1, 2 and 4:

    Since we are talking about per capita, the shear size of China and India in comparison to the U.S

    The amount of jobs that are in China because the regulation laws aren't as strict. For example, Hong Kong is one of the biggest markets in Asia because the regulation there is the most lax or one of the most lax in the world. Yet, because of this, there are also thousands of people living in stark conditions with an overly gross pollution (even though there are millionaires there.) If we were to make an example with New York, you'd be seeing the ghettos that were there during the world migrations to the U.S. (the potato famine and the huge migration the Ellis Island and the look for better conditions towards Angel Island in the west) with the standards that are in place in Hong Kong

    The type of jobs that are in India, quite a lot of jobs in India deals with IT or medical records because it is cheaper to keep it there than keeping it in America (chances are, most of us have some type of medical record in India,) there is less of a need for CO2 (at least since China is more about manufacturing compared to India.)

    Regulation/deregulation and markets and standard of living.
    Or non-regulation, since deregulation only applies to areas where there is regulation.

    Consider these categories:
    US - Mixed economy/Corporatism
    India - Mixed economy/Socialism
    China - Authoritarian capitalism/Communism

    (Japan, in comparison, has Authoritarian capitalism/Mixed economy.)

    How are these various types of system reflected in the stats on CO2 production per capita per year? Is there a correlation?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    A few thoughts about 1, 2 and 4:

    Since we are talking about per capita, the shear size of China and India in comparison to the U.S

    The amount of jobs that are in China because the regulation laws aren't as strict. For example, Hong Kong is one of the biggest markets in Asia because the regulation there is the most lax or one of the most lax in the world. Yet, because of this, there are also thousands of people living in stark conditions with an overly gross pollution (even though there are millionaires there.) If we were to make an example with New York, you'd be seeing the ghettos that were there during the world migrations to the U.S. (the potato famine and the huge migration the Ellis Island and the look for better conditions towards Angel Island in the west) with the standards that are in place in Hong Kong

    The type of jobs that are in India, quite a lot of jobs in India deals with IT or medical records because it is cheaper to keep it there than keeping it in America (chances are, most of us have some type of medical record in India,) there is less of a need for CO2 (at least since China is more about manufacturing compared to India.).
    Oh by the way, "India is 12th in the world in terms of nominal factory output." (Wiki)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #7
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    The type of jobs that are in India, quite a lot of jobs in India deals with IT or medical records because it is cheaper to keep it there than keeping it in America (chances are, most of us have some type of medical record in India,) there is less of a need for CO2 (at least since China is more about manufacturing compared to India.)

    Regulation/deregulation and markets and standard of living.
    Thank you for bringing up India. It is a country run by a corrupt government which siphons off trillions of dollars to Swiss banks. With such little expenditure on infrastucture, six hundred million people in India have no electricity. Therefore, their "carbon footprint" is bound to be very small.

    As with China, the per capita CO2 amounts are low because the government does not invest in its own people, but leaves them to their own devices as those higher up in the social structure wallow in wealth.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #8
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Thank you for bringing up India. It is a country run by a corrupt government which siphons off trillions of dollars to Swiss banks. With such little expenditure on infrastucture, six hundred million people in India have no electricity. Therefore, their "carbon footprint" is bound to be very small.

    As with China, the per capita CO2 amounts are low because the government does not invest in its own people, but leaves them to their own devices as those higher up in the social structure wallow in wealth.
    Yes, while India's government is very diverse (the last time I've studied about their government, there were hundreds of parties) it is prone to corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Or non-regulation, since deregulation only applies to areas where there is regulation.

    Consider these categories:
    US - Mixed economy/Corporatism
    India - Mixed economy/Socialism
    China - Authoritarian capitalism/Communism

    (Japan, in comparison, has Authoritarian capitalism/Mixed economy.)

    How are these various types of system reflected in the stats on CO2 production per capita per year? Is there a correlation?
    I don't think there is necessarily a correlation between governments and CO2 emissions. In terms of economy, possibly, China is much like the infant U.S. during the Industrial Revolution (though not in the same sense.) They're spurring production while America is spurring consumption. China needs CO2 to produce while America needs CO2 to consume.

    China's production know no bounds while America's consumption knows no bounds. It is why America has a huge debt owed to China second only to America owing money to its own people.

    Many countries in the East like China (including Hong Kong as itself,) Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Malaysia work on the principle of production/export... to do so requires some form of energy to produce.

    Many countries like America tends to work more towards the principle of consumption and import. In that same token, the CO2 emissions that America emit would gear more towards consumption based than production based. We don't see many things that are truly "Made in America" these days.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Yes, while India's government is very diverse (the last time I've studied about their government, there were hundreds of parties) it is prone to corruption.



    I don't think there is necessarily a correlation between governments and CO2 emissions. In terms of economy, possibly, China is much like the infant U.S. during the Industrial Revolution (though not in the same sense.) They're spurring production while America is spurring consumption. China needs CO2 to produce while America needs CO2 to consume.

    China's production know no bounds while America's consumption knows no bounds. It is why America has a huge debt owed to China second only to America owing money to its own people.

    Many countries in the East like China (including Hong Kong as itself,) Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, and Malaysia work on the principle of production/export... to do so requires some form of energy to produce.

    Many countries like America tends to work more towards the principle of consumption and import. In that same token, the CO2 emissions that America emit would gear more towards consumption based than production based. We don't see many things that are truly "Made in America" these days.
    Do you see a correlation between economic system/government and standard of living?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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