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  1. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not personal. Rmoney just happens to represent a group of people that is doing more to harm this nation than any other group. He is just an easy target because he's so transparent. Should he get elected, he's going to do everything he can to shift the balance of power in favor of big business and Wall Street even more than it is right now.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

  2. #232
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    @Lateralus: what exactly is it you want to happen to "Big Business"?

  3. #233
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  4. #234
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Is It just me or is it ironic that the concervative answer is always do nothing hamstring something effective so the problem gets worse?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Is It just me or is it ironic that the concervative answer is always do nothing hamstring something effective so the problem gets worse?
    Is it just me or is that more reflective or being the minority party, than it is of being a Republican.

    The exact same argument could be made about the Senate keeping Republicans from bringing issues to the senate floor.

    You can try to play the blame game, but that will only get you to "well it's wrong when they do it".

  6. #236
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Is it just me or is that more reflective or being the minority party, than it is of being a Republican.

    The exact same argument could be made about the Senate keeping Republicans from bringing issues to the senate floor.

    You can try to play the blame game, but that will only get you to "well it's wrong when they do it".
    We both know the truth. American politics is played between the 40 yard lines of the field and unfortunately both sides are becoming more corrupt and looking like one another every day sucking the cocks of multinational "persons" whose only interest are to bleed this country of every dime they can.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #237
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    That take is a little too chicken little for my tastes.

    Is it an issue? Yes.

    Is it a "sound the klaxons! all hands to battle stations!" emergency? I think not.

    The market (and corporations) allow the government to function as we know it.

    It's productivity drives the engine that allows the US its hegemonic position.

    The success of China was only made possible by adopting more market driven approaches to growth.

    The economy is the horse that pulls the cart (in this instance the government). The guy in the cart can steer the horse, and discipline the horse if it misbehaves, but he can never pull the cart himself.

    It's only by this measure of freedom that the horse can run with the cart. You don't want the cart to start going too fast (housing bubble) or it could crash. But you also want to get where you're going so the horse can't be too overburdened.

    The best way to keep the horse going as it should, is to pass legislation that keeps the horse from hurting itself (and everyone else) without keeping the horse from doing what it does best (driving growth).

    Now there are sensible measures that could be taken, like passing something like glass steagall again.

    But not all these regulations are reasonable.

  8. #238
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    @Zarathustra @onemoretime

    If you have some time to spare, listen to the podcast in the link.

    It's the best argument I've heard for what needs to be changed to get things moving again.

    And why we haven't been able to bounce back after the recession.

    Pethokoukis Podcast: An interview with economist Scott Sumner on market monetarism
    I'm concerned that this approach would do little to discourage hoarding on the part of banks and large account holders, given that the economy is still saturated with private debt. The banks would clearly love this, as it would provide a terrific means of cleaning up balance sheets, while high inflation would make that process even cheaper. In the absence of a spike in aggregate demand, however, there would be little reason to invest in employment, and as such, little reason to believe that real wages would rise. A high enough unemployment rate could very well lead to wage disinflation, and even in the presence of negative interest on deposit accounts, could lead to much of the money being diverted to dividends and other means of distributing profit. Also, good luck paying the interest on these bonds without raising taxes, or cutting spending in politically infeasible ways. The biggest losers would be small-to-medium size savers, who had to watch as their rainy-day fund inflated into oblivion.

    It also strikes me as representative of a particularly American view of the world, the idea that if we just believe hard enough, we have the power to make good outcomes happen. This strikes me as naive.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm concerned that this approach would do little to discourage hoarding on the part of banks and large account holders, given that the economy is still saturated with private debt. The banks would clearly love this, as it would provide a terrific means of cleaning up balance sheets, while high inflation would make that process even cheaper. In the absence of a spike in aggregate demand, however, there would be little reason to invest in employment, and as such, little reason to believe that real wages would rise. A high enough unemployment rate could very well lead to wage disinflation, and even in the presence of negative interest on deposit accounts, could lead to much of the money being diverted to dividends and other means of distributing profit. Also, good luck paying the interest on these bonds without raising taxes, or cutting spending in politically infeasible ways. The biggest losers would be small-to-medium size savers, who had to watch as their rainy-day fund inflated into oblivion.

    It also strikes me as representative of a particularly American view of the world, the idea that if we just believe hard enough, we have the power to make good outcomes happen. This strikes me as naive.
    The reason qe1 and 2 failed is that they were single events. The banks weren't willing to invest in employment because they didn't think enough was done to get the ball rolling again.

    As was proposed in the podcast, the government should purchase bonds etc.. with printed cash on an ongoing basis until the economy heats up enough to get rolling.

    If the fed is buying bonds on a continuing basis the corporations will have the certainty they need to loosen up and let that cash back into the economy.

    I would think this might need to be combined with some sort of mortgage write down.

    I think this kind of continuous spending is better than lump sum attempts.

    EDIT - The goal is to target results with its spending. Such that it spends as much as necessary to achieve the amount of growth NGDP growth they are looking for.

  10. #240
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The reason qe1 and 2 failed is that they were single events. The banks weren't willing to invest in employment because they didn't think enough was done to get the ball rolling again.

    As was proposed in the podcast, the government should purchase bonds etc.. with printed cash on an ongoing basis until the economy heats up enough to get rolling. I can't remember the specifics the professor mentions in the podcast, but I think the costs of borrowing are so low for governments right now that it's cheaper to borrow than it would be to fund it any other way.

    If the fed is buying bonds on a continuing basis the corporations will have the certainty they need to loosen up and let that cash back into the economy.

    I would think this might need to be combined with some sort of mortgage write down.

    I think this kind of continuous spending is better than lump sum attempts.
    I guess my question is what they would spend the money on. I don't see any particular reason they would, except for a few particular industries, spend it on labor in general, or domestic labor specifically. Even if it were reinvested into the company, I'd see it as far more likely to be spent on labor-reducing technology, than necessarily on new jobs.

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