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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This isn't about fighting over who the better person is personally.

    I don't know Obama (personally) any more than I do Romney (personally).

    And to be perfectly honest none of you do either. You can latch onto what the media wants to demonize or praise about each of them personally, but appeals to who the more likeable person is isn't going to get us out of this mess we've found ourselves in.
    What is this rubbish about the media? Romney has never experienced real struggle in his life. That is a fact.

    This thread is about policy, not populism. It's about logic, not mudslinging.

    I'm beginning to think that all you guys have is attacking Republicans personally, or singling out the extreme fringe and telling yourselves that all Conservatives are like that.
    No one can know what policies Romney would implement because he changes his position on every issue based upon the audience he is speaking to.

    Well we are not all like that.
    I couldn't care less what you're like.

    The only way for us to overcome our problems is to have an honest debate about how we are going to move forward.
    The only move forward that can affect any real change is a fundamental campaign finance reform, not a band-aid solution, but something like publicly financed campaigns.

    That's what I'm trying to do here, in addition to showing you guys what intelligent moderate conservatism looks like.
    If that is your aim, advocating for Romney won't help you. He's part of the wrong generation (baby boomers).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What is this rubbish about the media? Romney has never experienced real struggle in his life. That is a fact.
    And did he have any choice about what circumstances he was born into?

    Is it any more reasonable to hold his circumstances against him than it is against someone of more moderate means?

    No one can know what policies Romney would implement because he changes his position on every issue based upon the audience he is speaking to.
    Which is why I posted a thread about policy not Romney.

    The second article is just about the GOP warming up to Romney as a moderate.

    I couldn't care less what you're like.
    Right back at ya chief.

    The only move forward that can affect any real change is a fundamental campaign finance reform, not a band-aid solution, but something like publicly financed campaigns.
    Campaign finance reform certainly needs to happen and it will, but to say that that alone is the silver bullet that will get us out of this mess is naive at best.

    If that is your aim, advocating for Romney won't help you. He's part of the wrong generation (baby boomers).
    I'm advocating that he's more likely to move us in a pro growth direction than is Obama.

    Of course I can't predict what he would do in office, no one can about any candidate.

    What I can do is try to have a civil debate about policy.

    Which is proving mildly difficult at the moment.

  3. #13
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I hate to repeat myself but here goes ...
    Well this is a bit random, as I haven't participated in any of these political threads, but ...

    Did you watch that video ... ? Or have you before? Since you don't address it, you're not arguing against income inequality as one of the fundamental problems? Or do you utterly dismiss it? How do you argue against the points contained within it?

    And fundamental to that problem is that fact that people are never happy with living a comfortable mediocre life ... everyone wants the most out of everything, and survival of the fittest rules, and everyone wants more than they really need. Greed and laziness takes over .. how do you account for that? And true too of the poorest ... some of the people who rely on handouts get complacent too and try to milk the system as dry as possible.

    Fundamentally, I want to know how a Republican government going to achieve better income equality? If you're saying equality is irrelevant, I want to know how you refute the research that indicates this is not so.

    Further, interpret your position for me into some sort of reality ... what does an efficient public sector look like? What policies for example are the most harmful? How do you support small players and innovators? How would you make a productive future workforce? There are NO answers in the lengthy article you have posted, at least none that look like answers to me.

    Therefore I'm not interested in the rhetoric that you've quoted ...I want to know what would you really do?

    Basically I want a gigantic TO DO list ... how would you really make America better?

    As an aside, my issue with Mitt Romney is that I don't think Mr. Romney has ever stood in a grocery store with $5.00 in his pocket, being all the money he has left in the world and tried to decide how he could make it last for a week until his next paycheck. This inability to relate to hardship is a real detriment to him gaining traction IMO.

    And a random question: Do you admire Gov Scott Walker's actions in Wisconsin?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well this is a bit random, as I haven't participated in any of these political threads, but ...

    Did you watch that video ... ? Or have you before?
    I have seen it before.

    Since you don't address it, you're not arguing against income inequality as one of the fundamental problems? Or do you utterly dismiss it?
    The bits I quoted were parts of the article where the author admits that inequality is a problem.

    Hence where he says that our current regulatory scheme prefers consolidation to growth.

    I do support streamlined regulation to hold corporate giants in check, and more generally, regulation that keeps them from having a greater voice in politics than do the people.

    Further, interpret your position for me into some sort of reality ... what does an efficient public sector look like? What policies for example are the most harmful? How do you support small players and innovators? How would you make a productive future workforce? There are NO answers in the lengthy article you have posted, at least none that look like answers to me.
    You expect too much of me. Our presidential candidates can't do that, and they have teams of policy experts working with them.

    Therefore I'm not interested in the rhetoric that you've quoted ...I want to know what would you really do?
    What I would really do is try to have an honest discussion with the public about the problems facing the nation, and figure out what they want me to do. All the while being mindful of my personal convictions.

    Basically I want a gigantic TO DO list ... how would you really make America better?
    Are you serious?

    Do you know how long that would take me to come up with?

    I can debate general policy, but to expect me to be able on my own to do all the leg work to come up with a legislative line item list that fixes the economy is crazy.

    If you want me to tell you what I would do it would sound something like:

    try to fix education
    try to fix campaign finances
    try to change global military outlook so we can spend less on foreign bases and the like
    get corporatism under control, and end the system where money buys more influence that do voters
    etc..

  5. #15
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The bits I quoted were parts of the article where the author admits that inequality is a problem.
    But which is true then? Is inequality a problem or not? If you are saying the article admits to that, why is that admission prefaced by:

    And so he desperately seeks to tell a story in which income inequality is at the heart of our economic woes and our existing entitlement system is the key to prosperity and security—a story both internally incoherent and utterly detached from reality, and which could only be sustained by misdirection and distraction.
    Anyhow, like almost all of these types of articles, they are long on opinions and short on real answers.

    The daunting maze of credits and deductions should be pared back to serve just a few essential ends (like charitable giving, health insurance, and child rearing), rates should be lowered where they can be, and the corporate income tax rate in particular must be brought into line with those of our competitors abroad.
    I do agree with this ... but is it a position Republicans advocate?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #16

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    Ah American "politics", it always goes to "it were the liberals wot dun it" like a bad game of cluedo or poorly written murder mystery.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But which is true then? Is inequality a problem or not? If you are saying the article admits to that, why is that admission prefaced by:
    It's prefaced by that because Obama is saying that economic inequality is at the heart of our financial problems, not our crumbling nearly unfundable entitlement system.

    Just because inequality is part of the problem doesn't mean that it's the whole problem.
    I do agree with this ... but is it a position Republicans advocate?
    It's a conservative position to advocate, I stopped caring whether or not my positions agreed with GOP dogma a long time ago.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    Ah American "politics", it always goes to "it were the liberals wot dun it" like a bad game of cluedo or poorly written murder mystery.
    Yes it is easier to make fun of something than to rebut it's argument isn't it.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But which is true then? Is inequality a problem or not? If you are saying the article admits to that, why is that admission prefaced by:



    Anyhow, like almost all of these types of articles, they are long on opinions and short on real answers.


    I do agree with this ... but is it a position Republicans advocate?
    I noticed that about American political publishing a while back, Mike Moore's second book onwards was less and less like something worth reading and more and more like a "go team" equivalent of the writers/pundits who annoyed him, a like football and all for entertainment. Although I've read a lot of other US pop political writers, they dont travel well, I just buy cheap ex-library discards from the US on amazon.

    I would say that the republicans do advocate that, the "competitors abroad" are places like India and China, to be honest the US couldnt compete with them on tax, in no small part because those are under developed or unevenly developed nations with less political push and pull than there is in the US. I think even libertarian ideology will only take you so far.

  10. #20
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You expect too much of me. Our presidential candidates can't do that, and they have teams of policy experts working with them.
    Exactly my point too though ... I don't expect it of you personally, I just grow weary of reading people's opinions on the matter with no real weight to them, no real plan, just a namby-pamby of "this one person will fix everything, this one party has all the answers, vote for MEEEE!" It just perpetually feeds into the existing system of the have's taking care of the have's ... the way that's become the norm in American society.

    I think a two-party system is mostly to blame for that. It fosters the same old story played over and over again ... change your horse to try to change the outcome of the race. Blame the other party for every problem that exists currently. Crazy really, eh? I like to see people work together better.

    What I would really do is try to have an honest discussion with the public about the problems facing the nation, and figure out what they want me to do. All the while being mindful of my personal convictions.
    That sounds good and ooooh I like personal convictions ... what are yours?

    Are you serious?

    Do you know how long that would take me to come up with?
    Ya ...

    But I have faith in you ... you could do it. Then I want to see you run for office!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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