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  1. #111
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I disagree with that article. It's nothing more than a rehash of old ideas divorced from their time and place in history.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I disagree with that article. It's nothing more than a rehash of old ideas divorced from their time and place in history.
    I don't know how I feel about the GI bill part, but IMHO the investing in infrastructure and sceince stuff is spot on.

    What do you think a good way to stimulate the economy would be?

  3. #113
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What do you think a good way to stimulate the economy would be?
    Forgiving student loan debt would be a good start.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #114
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    a little additional curbside comment. I find the Dems/Repubs are basically alike except in their chosen way to manage the "great unwashed". Liberals tend to wear "taking care of the less fortunate" as a badge sewn on the sleeve, while Conservatives tend to view their responsibility as "a lesser" evil to fulfill the obligations of the social contract. A quick journey down history's memory lane shows what evils lurk behind the mask of social unrest. Liberals in the good old USA by and large have never known the bad things that can happen (very quickly) in a state of anarchy. Most folks aren't even aware Europe is circling the drain. They are content watching their reality TV shows and getting fatter by the minute. There is one burning question I need to have answered: Will the ultimate powers that be allow Europe to disintegrate or will they step in a backstop the EURO?????

  5. #115
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I don't know how I feel about the GI bill part, but IMHO the investing in infrastructure and sceince stuff is spot on.

    What do you think a good way to stimulate the economy would be?
    I'm not sure that stimulating the economy will have much effect on our current social ills.

    The problem with infrastructure is that the past 70 years of sprawly suburban development has been such that each individual American requires a lot of infrastructure that is shared between relatively few people. As a result, you'd have a whole lot of "bridge to nowhere" projects that nevertheless seem like critical needs to the populations served. Other helpful projects, such as mass railroad electrification, seem infeasible in the political climate (which is the bigger problem).

    Pure science research is cool in theory, but those jobs are great for highly-educated academics, and very few other people. It might be an outstanding long-term solution, but it's very problematic right now, especially since so many jobs have been eliminated by technology.

    I don't think we should be looking at the current state of affairs as an attempt to regrow the economy, but rather to begin the transition to a steady-state economy, and figure out how to ensure that everyone lives as humanely as possible under that framework.

  6. #116
    . Blank's Avatar
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    ITT:
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO-NObj_TrQ&feature=related"]Failing infrastrucure[/YOUTUBE]
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm not sure that stimulating the economy will have much effect on our current social ills.
    Now we're getting somewhere.

    The problem with infrastructure is that the past 70 years of sprawly suburban development has been such that each individual American requires a lot of infrastructure that is shared between relatively few people. As a result, you'd have a whole lot of "bridge to nowhere" projects that nevertheless seem like critical needs to the populations served. Other helpful projects, such as mass railroad electrification, seem infeasible in the political climate (which is the bigger problem).
    You're touching on the most pressing problem facing mankind at the moment.

    The growth of the human species to the point that the planet can't sustain us.

    We have two choices to deal with this, either a) we can get real comfortable with telling people how many kids they can have or b) we try to set a plan in motion that could eventually alleviate the strain of our growing global populace.

    Given your response, I'm thinking that you would side with option a).

    The fact is that a growing populace drives growth. If you can't slow down population growth, you can't really stop growth generally.

    Now if we were able to find some sort of happy medium with the planet and have a stable population, I would be all for adopting a holding pattern as far as growth was concerned. But the honest answer is that even if population growth slows in the first world, the continued growth of 2nd and 3rd world populations will make up for any slowdown encountered in 1st world nations.

    That being said, we are going to have to invest in science and technology to continue to address the needs of a growing populace.

    Basically it boils down to this:

    We need to be able to colonize other planets before the population growth here gets too bad.

    You're not going to be able to address that growth with green tech either. There is an upper bound on the amount of people the planet can support regardless of what technology you use.

    We have to invest in science now, so that future generations may be able to live on other planets and save earth from our species.

    Pure science research is cool in theory, but those jobs are great for highly-educated academics, and very few other people. It might be an outstanding long-term solution, but it's very problematic right now, especially since so many jobs have been eliminated by technology.
    Like I said in that other thread, the advances made by the academics now, lead to jobs for everyone down the road.

    Do you think the inventor of the internal combustion engine had any idea how massive the car industry of today would be?

    I don't think we should be looking at the current state of affairs as an attempt to regrow the economy, but rather to begin the transition to a steady-state economy, and figure out how to ensure that everyone lives as humanely as possible under that framework.
    And I disagree.

    But to each their own.

  8. #118
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm not sure that stimulating the economy will have much effect on our current social ills.
    I don't think so either, but neither does austerity. Cuts and taxes don't seem to work correctly as we've seen in other countries. There is only so much you can cut and tax before it reaches a breaking point.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I don't think we should be looking at the current state of affairs as an attempt to regrow the economy, but rather to begin the transition to a steady-state economy, and figure out how to ensure that everyone lives as humanely as possible under that framework.
    (Rare that I am actually agreeing with DB.)

    To the contrary, the current state of affairs is how we got into this mess in the first place. Until we can develop a solution, it'll happen again when we least expect it.

    Take the JP Morgan debacle about maybe less than a month ago. They still have not learn that their gambling directly affects everybody.

    Even before the Bush Tax decreases, we were predicting that we'll be on our way to paying for our debt some time in the future(even with Military-Medicare-Social Security pre-2k.) Somehow, years of Tax decreases and years of wars abroad on top of Medical and Social Security broke lose when the Financial meltdown occur.

    A stable economy =/= a stable country as we are currently seeing (or at least I am seeing.)

    If you don't have a sound foundation unlike the one we are having right now, it only takes a few screws lose to break it apart.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Though my suggestions can sound crazy at worst and a possibility at best, we need to

    1: Fix how the Government works
    2: Fix how Wall Street works
    3: Fix our Political System

    Only then can we get anywhere with our social ills and unstable economy. Now, when can the country take its medicine?

  9. #119
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    From the Daily Beast:

    What Did Wisconsin Mean (And Not)?



    1) The age of austerity will bear hard on public-sector unions, or rather, even harder than it already has. An electorate that has seen its standards of living corrode will not pay taxes to sustain superior pay and benefits for its public sector employees. Over the past 3 years, we have seen the state and local public sector shrink. Over the next decade, we will see its pay relentlessly ground down, as private sector pay has been ground down over the decade past.

    2) Wisconsin has definitively exposed the failure of the American left to build an effective populist movement despite the worst economic crisis since the 1930s. The Wisconsin recall vote was a battle at a time and place of the unions' own choosing. They still lost, and in one of the bluest states of non-coastal America. Who'll fear them now? Say what you will about the Tea Party, it collected scalps. The unions plus Occupy plus the remnants of the '08 Obama campaign have not. Perhaps that will change if a Republican wins the White House - but until and unless the left loses that fight too, we won't know.

    3) Yet at the same time, Wisconsin tells us less than one might think about the outcome of that White House vote. The exit polls in Wisconsin show that state still favoring President Obama. The issue map in November will be very different: expect to hear a lot more about how the Republican call for the repeal of Obamacare will mean higher prescription drug prices for seniors. Nor can Republicans expect the same huge money advantage nationwide as in Wisconsin.

    4) Democrats interpret Wisconsin not as a battle over wages and benefits, but as an illegitimate attempt to rewrite the rules of politics to their permanent disadvantage. They are confirmed in a view that the Republican party is a force for concentrated wealth, contemptuous of democracy and fair play. Democrats will emerge from this loss radicalized, not chastened.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    The talk about the GI Bill made me read more of this thread... I'm usually not one to comment on this kind of stuff because I'll be honest it's mostly out of my league... BUT... Have you ever looked into Veterans benefits and how much money goes into that whole system?

    My husband currently works for the Department of Veteran Affairs. He is also currently on VA disability for injuries sustained in Iraq...twice. Anyway, he handles the means test to determine eligibility. He said a big flaw in the current VA disability system is people who are over the age of 65 coming in and saying they have applied to numerous place and nobody will hire them... So that person receives 100% disability because they "want to work, but are unable to obtain a job." The issue has something to do with double dipping by receiving social security and VA disability.. I guess they are afraid to change these laws because of "age discrimination"? I'm all for supporting veterans, but I'm with my husband... There needs to be some tweaks made.

    I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the whole system works to be honest. My husband has injuries to both knees. At 33 years old he needs knee replacements. His right knee has minimal cartilage left. He'll likely develop arthritis in that knee before he can find a doctor to do knee replacements. He is at 35% disability right now. He said it would be very easy for him to bump it up to 100% disability, but he would be doing it dishonestly. IF he were to go ahead and say what he needed to say to get the 100% disability.... He would be getting over $3,000 a month tax free from the VA... AND still be able to work AND start receiving his military retirement pay now. Oh... AND have free health insurance for his family. Like I said... I'm all for supporting veterans, but with budgets being so far in debt... I think they really need to make some adjustments to the system.

    I apologize if this doesn't make a lot of sense... My husband is way better at explaining it than I am...


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